How big is the coaching box?
 

Apparently pretty big in the ACC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDQE3p4pxYc

Depends on who the coach is and who is calling the game.:)
barryb

To be fair, the officials are not watching the coach, they are watching the players. The minute the players do something everyone would complain the officials are not doing their job.

Peace

That excuse didn't work in the two-person system and it certainly doesn't work with three officials.

We can't pick and choose which parts of the game we want to manage. The bench area has to be managed.

I am not making an excuse. In that play, I would not be watching the coach. I probably would not even know where the coach was as the Trail or even lead because you are watching players. The court is the priority, not the coach’s box. And that is why my state backed off the following year after they made a big deal the year before with the coaching box. And it is very clear the person that created the tape is not someone that understands officiating.

Peace

Rut - I understand your comment, but she is not just a little ways out onto the court, she is waaaaaay out there. I can't see how any of the officials didn't see that.

Most of the play was on the other side of the court. For a moment the trail official had the ball close to them and I know then I would not have turned my head to watch what a coach was doing. Then soon after the coach got right back near the sideline and I am not sure the official even were aware of where she was standing. And I seriously doubt any official would be calling a T for just that action.

Peace

The idea of management (IMO) implies using judicial wisdom. If I see her, I'm telling her to get her a$$ off the floor (the first time). If she becomes intangled in the play - then I have an immediate problem. Based on this video, I have nothing.

Just based on the film you cannot tell that the officials even noticed the coach at all. I do not see a head turn in her direction.

Peace

Mark, yea, she's way out on the floor. But I also think the announcer is making way, way too big a deal out of it. And I don't think no refs saw it. I think they just didn't do anything. There's no way that trail at the very beginning didn't see that coach. In HS, I would definitely call that or at least say something really, really firm, but this isn't HS ball, and I'll let them decide what works for them.

A double negative. So you really think the refs DID see it.

As far out onto the floor as that coach was (for quite some time), I do not see how someone in the crew did not notice. Officials don't have tunnel vision. The only explanation I can think of is that the crew knew they had just blown a call and were going to let her vent a little. That wouldn't be a good excuse, but it's the only thing I can come up with.

I bet the observers had a lot to say in the locker room. That is just terrible bench management.

That's exactly what rainmaker said ! She thinks someone ignored it.

The coach might have been clearly out of the box for about 5 seconds at most. About half of that time there was a double team near the Trail official. The Trail official had 3 players right in front of him/her (sorry I cannot tell). Then the ball clearly goes to the other side of the court or near the paint (which we cannot see). As the ball goes away from camera view, the coach is at best on the edge of the coaching box but that is not very clear because the camera angle does not show how far based on the bench is blocking the line. Then as the ball is on the other side of the court, the ball starts going in transition to the other end of the court and the ball is opposite the table.

Now the best official that would have been able to tell is the Trail official mainly because they are on that side. If you know anything about Women's mechanics, they rotate anytime the ball is on the opposite part of the court. It is possible the Lead official made a rotation (we cannot tell on the tape) during the sequence.

Now this tape was only 25 seconds long where 2 transitions are taking place and we are talking seriously about bad management of a coach all during live ball play? Are we serious?

If this situation took place during a HS game and we are using a 14 foot box, not only would we have to know if a coach was on the court, but their depth in that box. So a coach could be completely out of box and we expect officials during live action to know all the coach's whereabouts?

I work pretty much only 3 Person in all my games and I can tell you I hardly ever know where a coach is standing during a live ball unless the ball is right in front of the bench. Now if this was during a dead ball I would understand the reaction. But during live ball in a very short period of time, not that is a little silly if you ask me.

Peace

Coaching Box Story
 

In 2001, my college alumni were invited to fill in at a college summer league. For some of the games, I kinda assumed the rolse as coach, since it was obvious i wouldn't play much.

In one game, I'm coaching, and wouldn't you know it, the other's team coach comes down and starts coaching in my coaching box. :confused:

He did this a couple of more times, so I figured I may as well join the fun and coach from his box. When I do this, the one referee (who was the host school's head coach) tells me to get back into my box. I let him know at the next dead ball that if we were going to enforce the technical points of the rules in a summer game, he needed to tell the other coach to stop tap dancing his way down to my box. Referee told the coach something, and I got a dirty look from said coach, but i just looked at him and shrugged my shoulders, as if to say "What did you expect me to do?" :D

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Rut. Maybe my state and my college assignors have a different viewpoint on the coaching box than yours do. All I do in my HS and college games is 3-person. The trail had to see the coach on the floor. She was right in front of him as he was coming up the floor. The lead might not have seen the coach if they were turned and watching off-ball, but I would think that the C would have noticed even if they were staying in their area and being aware of where the ball was.

I'm going to assume that the trail didn't think he had time to address the situation during that play and addressed the coach a short time later. I would really like to think that happened. If nobody addressed it then, I'd hate to see how far the coach got out on the floor later in the game.

In our state, coach management is a pretty big emphasis even at the HS level. Allowing a coach to be that far out on the floor without being noticed would definitely be a reason for a crew to not advance to the semi-final round at the state tournament.

And of course there is the recent 2007-08 POI for men's NCAA regarding the coaching box.

If I miss that a coach is that far out of the coaching box, I know it's time for me to hang up the whistle.

She should've been dealt with.

I have never had a college assignor that I work for or during a camp ever make an issue out of where a coach stands during live ball action like this video and others here are trying to suggest. And certainly not to give a T if this is the first observation of this action which none of us can tell.

I seriously do not see anything nefarious about a coach stepping out onto a court a little because they are usually caught up in the emotion of the game. I do not think this coach was trying to get away with anything. She was coaching and she is emotional and I bet she did not even realize where she was. I do not think the coaching box is a slippery slop for other actions just because your foot is across the line.

My state in 2005-2006 went around threatening all officials with no playoffs if they did not get every official to enforce the coaching box to the letter. The following year they completely backed off and even admitted that they might have went overboard in expecting officials to only give Ts for that kind of action. My God, this tape was only 25 seconds long. We have no idea what was addressed or what the officials saw. I stand by the fact that it is very likely the officials did not see this coach at all. Officials do not have eyes in the back of their head.

In football there is a similar rule that only allows 3 coaches in the coaching box at any one time and I have yet to hear anyone of influence suggest officials should be turning around to watch coaches to verify how many coaches should be in the box. Most of the time that is noticed in football is when there is a dead ball or a play happens near the sideline.

Well until the NCAA Meetings take place (which will start in a week or so), it is going to be very difficult to know what they want. The NCAA does a much better job in explaining their POEs. And I have been to those meetings only to have the Supervisor of Officials to clearly state how they want things like this to be handled. I am sure there will be some commentary as there always is about what they want officials to do and not to do. And I would not bet that there is a different position from the Women's side to the Men's side.

Peace

Like I said Rut, the philosophy of who we work for may have a big bearing on how aware we are of where coaches are. I used to not notice coaches much unless they were screaming at the crew. Now I am very aware of them at all times because it is so emphasized around here.

Our men's college meeting is coming up soon, but our assignor went to the NCAA meetings and sent out the POI's via e-mail already. Next to the POI about the coaching box, he hand-wrote a note that said, "zero tolerance" so I think it's going to be a much bigger emphasis this year. Quite possibly due to the fact that officials are doing a poor job of dealing with coaches who gain an advantage by leaving the box. The college coaching box is huge. There is no excuse for allowing coaches to make it even bigger, IMO.

There doesn't need to be anything nefarious about a coach stepping out on the court to gain an advantage. Calling a technical is not the only way to deal with a coach stepping on to the floor in their exhuberance. Ignoring it completely will certainly lead to bigger problems later.

As I said before, my State took a "zero tolerance" position and I did not notice anything different during "live ball play."

Coach’s conduct is going to be an emphasis across the board. I understand that the Big East for example is going to crack down big time on coaches and their public displays of disagreement (holding arms out, jumping up and down and other very obvious behavior).

But to expect a zero tolerance application is not very likely to be successful. They can make something a POE that does not mean that everyone is going to follow it like you are suggesting. I remember one year Marcy Weston told everyone in a meeting to not call a certain move palming because all players were trying this, even though this was clearly apart of the POE and then elaborated on how it should be called. I would not be surprised if this coaching box thing comes with some “qualifying” of what is a clear violation and what is not. Even last year there was this big deal made out of signal mechanics only to find officials all over the place not following what was discussed in the meeting.

Anyone with a little common sense is going to realize there are not going to be a T on each coach every game for the first month. You and I know that is not going to happen.

You are right. But how do you know these officials did not deal with it? What where they supposed to do, stop everything to tell the coach to get back? You cannot show 25 seconds of a game (Can you tell me what part of the game this took place BTW?). We have no idea how or if this was addressed. All you are I are doing is assuming what the officials saw. And unless you or I asked them personally, we have no idea what they saw or did not see. But I have watched enough tape of games and evaluated my performance and others it is save to assume that official did not see the coach based on the action and where the official was facing.

I tend to like to give officials the benefit of the doubt for things that are really hard to tell. Unless the tape shows all officials and the entire play, I think for anyone to tell us what they "should have done" is rather short-sighted. Then again we all do not agree on many things, so this is just another disagreement. ;)

Peace

and life goes on..... :)

Based on what I saw what was posted, it looks like at the very very beginning we may of had the extreme tail end of the coach having a quick word with the new lead. That may of lead to the video posters comments and the reason the video was posted in the first place. But that is all just pure conjecture on my part.

Beyond that I totally agree with JRut here. There just isn't enough video here to make any type of comment regarding the how the referee's handled this.

The only time she is significantly out on the court is when he starts getting excited anticipating the upcoming double team and trying to get her players to that spot. After that it just looks like she just loses track of where she is at she walks toward the baseline. This would probably warrant nothing more than a polite reminder to make sure she knew where she was.

It looks to me like this could of possibly been during the ACC tourney of some year? If so I would suppose that some pretty decent officials are on this game and I would defer to them as to what needed to be addressed. In this case it sure seems like there wasn't any.

I sure hope those officials saw the coach on the floor and addressed it shortly thereafter. Looks like a recipe for disaster later in the game.

Even at the levels I ref, we are expected to notice something that obvious and nip it in the bud.

At the D-1 level with a crew of 3, I can't imagine that at least 2 of them didn't notice it.

Aww, the fight's over already? I just got here... :)

I would be curious to find out what year this game occured, because bench decorum and the coach's box has been a POI in NCAA-W in the past couple of years. It went so far that I had one supervisor had us check the benches before the game to see if there was enough room for a coach to even stand OOB in the box. There were schools in the conference that were setting up their benches (folding chairs) close enough to the sideline that when the players sat, the only place for the coach to stand was inbounds. When we would ask the coach to get back in the box, they would point and say "There's no room", and figure that would give them a little more leeway. Finally, our supervisor told us to either have the coaches move the benches back so there is room to stand OOB, or have the coach sit the entire game. Period. And we had the backing of the conference as well. Pretty soon, benches started magically appearing farther back off the sideline.

Obviously coaches and schools will use any advantage they can get. Being out on the floor, even a little ways, is an advantage. Let me ask this: if you're at C, and the coach is standing right next to you trying to give their team instructions, do you ignore the coach? Is there an unfair advantage? What if you're opposite the table when this happens? :eek: Well, now there's an advantage! So, when is the line crossed between ignoring the behavior and an unfair advantage? I guess the rule committees are saying the line is crossed when the line is crossed, so to speak.

As officials, that gives us more things to be aware of during a game. But since the bench is already under our jurisdiction, we now need to be more aware of it, even during a live ball. Perhaps it was a combination of officials saying things like, "If the coach isn't yelling at me, I'm not paying attention to them", and this video, that has prompted the rules committee to say it's time to start enforcing the rule as written, not enforcing it as we feel it should be enforced.

Of course, check with your supervisor for how they want it to be handled.