<BIG><A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=basketball&page=gd_flop">The Great Debate: The Flop</A></BIG>

If you did call the flop, wouldn't you have to call it a technical foul? It is an unsporting technical foul for faking being fouled. I would be very very hesitant to call it a T. If I did so, I would have to call it every time in order to be consistent. I have never seen it called as such. In reality I usually no call it.

I never call a T , for me it's a NO CALL. Most of the time this sends a message to the players that flop will not be called.

Brad, you seem to be posting these "Great Debates" about a month after we have already beaten the topic to death. :D

I agree with the consensus from before - don't call anything, just tell the flopper to get up. Pretty soon he/she's going to realize that he's only hurting himself and his team by taking himself out of the action.

It's a no call. The defense has put themselves at a disadvantage but not being able to rebound a possible miss.
If a coach complains, I just tell him/her that it was a "flop" and it's not a valid defensive play.

I've called T only once. After several no calls by the crew. Outlet pass on fast break was just short of mid court/tableside. Player catches ball in the air and comes down with both feet to a complete stop. Defensive player is about 4 feet away, yells and falls to the court. Coach goes crazy that I don't call charge. I called the T for unsportsmanship.

"Oscars are in March" usually cleans it up when they whine about not getting the call".

Which opens a can of worms, since there was nothing wrong, therefore nothing to call, why is it a "no-call"? Where did this start. Even though I use the term and we all know what it means, it seems redundant. No-call to me implies that you should have called something, and didn't.

Oh, boy, DeNucci's been getting to ya!

It does kind of remind me of the term "near miss." Well, if you nearly missed, to me, it implies a colision . ..

No denucci, just listening to induhviduals saturday in the resturant as a game (there were 4, take your pick) was on. I must have heard "great no-call" or "awful no-call" about 600 times (along with reach and overtheback). What is a "great no-call", not calling a foul that didn't happen? In the case of a flop, this can be applied but I hear it for other things (thanks Dickie).

Maybe not working on a Saturday let me think too much...

The Flop
 

My thoughts on this play. If a player flops with no contact I am playing through this play without a whistle. If a defensive player flops and there is minor contact on the play, I will hold my whistle and if the shot misses I will (sometimes depending on severity of contact) take a foul on defender. If the contact was enough to cause the airborne offensive player to go slightly off balance and miss the layup/dunk/finger-roll/ type of shot at the rim level a block, in my estimation, is the correct call.

Players flopping with no contact at all, I would never, ever call a technical foul for unsportsmanlike behavior as was mentioned by a earlier post. This would bring unecessary attention to an official by making this particular call.

I agree with passing on this call for the most part. A few weeks ago, I had a coach in my ear saying "you gotta call something.... they're flopping all over the place and somebody's going to get hurt". We called a few blocks, but a true no contact flop was nuttin!

Any thoughts on what to say to a coach?

Re: The Flop
 

Question. Would you call a block when the contact is minor and the defender who has established LGP flops? In other words, the defender has LGP and the contact is initiated by the offense. However, the contact is just a "brush" and the defender yells and falls. If the shot misses would you still have a block or would you have nothing?

I had this situation and did not call anything. The coach of the defensive player requested a T.O. to ride me about not calling a PC foul. Now I'm still a rookie and I'm not known by most coaches, so he's giving me an ear-full and I'm explaining the lack of contact. Then my vetern partner walks over and simply says, "That was a flop coach. That's all it was" and walks away.

"Yeah... what he said!"

Mike

Mike Burns
 

I like the way you handled this play. I would not have a foul in that situation. If a defender establishes legal guarding position and then an offensive player initiates contact and the defender flops, I would have nothing. A simple response would be, Coach your player did not take the contact and bailed out by flopping. The Player control fouls we want to get are the "chest to chest" contact that usually takes both player to the floor.

Remember a defensive player is permitted to "firm up" when preparing to take an offensive foul. So many times I see officials take a good charge away because they believe the defensive player moved slightly into the offensive player. That would be considered "firming up" and an offensive foul should be called. Please do not construe this as sliding over in front of an airborne shooter from a the weakside on defense. That is a totally different play in itself. Allow your defensive player to "firm up" by a slight body movement and don't split hairs as to movement. If the movement is blatant than call a blocking foul.

This has been a good thread.

Re: Re: The Flop
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Burns

Quote:

I had this situation and did not call anything. The coach of the defensive player requested a T.O. to ride me about not calling a PC foul. Now I'm still a rookie and I'm not known by most coaches, so he's giving me an ear-full and I'm explaining the lack of contact. Then my vetern partner walks over and simply says, "That was a flop coach. That's all it was" and walks away. "Yeah... what he said!"

Mike,

Don't get frustrated that the coach took what your veteran partner said and lived with it, while he was getting a real piece of you about the same call.

One of the sad but true aspects of officiating is that of gaining the respect and credibility with the coaches. If they know you and respect you, many times even bad calls are accepted. If you are the new kid on the block, every call will be analyzed looking for a reason to question you.

Keep working to get the angles and make the good solid calls. The coaches will start to give you respect for your work. I wish that I could tell you that it will take a finite period of time, but the time needed to garner the respect for each call differs with each coach.

However, they will notice if you keep hustling and giving your best effort each time out. Good luck!!

The Flop - call something
 

In the state of Washington, we were given specific instructions from the Sate Association, that if we had bodies on the floor (in this situation) we had to have a call. My philosophy, previously, was similar to what the majority appears to be, which was: the "no call" with an occasional acccompanying comment, ie. "get up", "Oscars... etc." I must admit though, that changing has been more difficult than I thought it would be, as I find myself passing on this play still and going with the no call.

What If??
 

I had a situation recently where the defensive player obviously flopped and then the shooter came down and tripped over him. I held my whistle and got an ear full from the coach of the offensive player who wanted a foul on the player on the floor. What is the proper call in this sitch?

"coach, if they are not gonna stand there and take a charge and flop before it happens, and no contact occurs, i will swallow the whistle. but he displaces the shooter, the foul will be called," and plus not all contact is considered a foul, which no coach understands...

Re: What If??
 

rev.,
i am about to stir the pot.
this is a situation that could be used as a game management tool. and could be approached several different ways.

1. if the defender obviously flopped and the shooter tripped over him, depending on the kind of game, i might call a trip on the defender. if the game is real messy and bad defense is prevelant during the game i would probly call a foul on the D. this would convey the message that "this is unacceptable."

2. on the other hand you could see the play and while the defender is still on the floor, give him a look, and say, "get up" and motion to him to get up at the same time. this will let him know that you see what happened and you will not call it for him.

3. contact is made, but the defender still throws some acting into the mix. this is where the play gets dicey. if the offensive player makes contact, the defensive player is in LGP and acts to draw attention, i have to look very closely to determine whether the offensive player actually invades the space of the defensive player. if the offensive player does invade the space of the def. and there was contact(though he does act) i will call a P.C. foul because he went through the D. (but there has to be contact)

there are other diff. ways to handle but at 1:30am i am done.

I think it's a no call.

I am jumping into the fray kind of late, but it is nice to see my name being thrown around.

First, flopping occurs under two different circumstances.

1) A1 has a legal position on the court. A1 sees B1 coming toward him/her and bails out as a natural reaction to impending contact by B1. It is the type of reaction that we of all do if we think we are going to get hit by someone who is moving without seeing us. It is assumed that because of the flop by A1 there is not any contact by B1 with A1. It is my opinion that this type of flop should not come under the technical foul provision of the rules for faking being fouled. If A1 bails out too early I tell the player to stand in there and take it like a man/woman and take the charge; of course. Remember, if A1 starts to bail out under this circumstance and contact does occur, then B1 is responsible for the contact because of A1's favorable position on the court.

2) A1 does not have a legal position on the court and attempts to draw a charging foul when their position on the court really lends itself to a blocking foul if there is contact between A1 and B1 (player with the ball). This is the great dilemma: Call a block or a techinal foul for faking being fouled.

I will be the first to admit that the technical foul is an obsure foul. How many times have we seen it or called it. I have never seen it called or called it myself. The first time A1 flops with no contact between A1 and B1, I tell A1 I do not want to see it again, because the actual penalty is a technical foul. If there is contact between A1 and B1, then it is easy, blocking foul on A1. If A1 knows that the penalty for flopping is a technical foul, that puts a stop to it right away.

Block on A1? How do you figure that?

That sentence was poorly worded. It has been my experience that A1 usually flops when he/she is in an unfavorable position and is trying to influence the official to call a charging foul on B1. The first time that A1 flops in the scenario that I just described and there in no contact, by rule that is a technical foul for faking being fouled, I discreetly let A1 know that his/her actions are a technical foul and to stop the nonsense. I think that everybody goes that route because it is an obscure techincal foul, very techincal is the best description I can give. But if there is contact, and A1 is not in a favorable position, then A1 is responsible for the contact, and the official should call a blocking foul on A1. I hope this cleared things up for you.

Mark,

I think that the A1???? came up since we normally think of the defense being the one flopping, and that Team B is normally on defense. However, in your original post, you did state that A1 was the player about to receive the contact. :)