tonite in my game i was working a team i have had many times before with a coach that is very volatile. before the game my 3rd partner had to bail because his wife had just had a baby. we were able to pick up a great ref that had the night night off. the coach told me before the game he did not particularly like the add on official. this statement is fine by me. during pregame i tell my partners what was said just to give warning for potential hazards. 2 min. into the game i am lead table side and call a shooting foul on a drive to the hole. the coach wanted a travel that he said occurred before the foul. (we used the pro switches tonite) i am now trail table and the coach is asking about the play and i apologize for not seeing the travel and assured him that my partner would have called it if he had seen it as well. then he points at my partner and says, "that fu[king a$$hole aint worth sh1t." it took me about 2 sec to process the statement, it took me by surprise. i gave him a very hurt look and a very loud tech. i tooted real loud and pointed right in right at him from about 5 ft away and reported to the table. i wanted to make the statement very clear that what he said was unexceptable.

this may have been a poor way to handle this situation but i feel good for defending my partner.

to add on he and i usually talk to each other during the game about plays or he would jokeingly curse me or tell me that we took the game from the other team when he was winning by 20 or more with seconds left to play. these are acceptable to me when i know he was not serious. i am afraid that tonites situation has hurt our raport during games. i have him on the road tommorrow nite(fri) and will post the exchange that we have together sunday.

Just woundering, where do you draw the line on a flagrant T?

To me this has crossed over. :(

Better queston is is it a small area? I try to limit my exposure to team, especially twice in the same week. I know it happens, and is unavoidable sometimes. I just hope you both have a short memory.

good job, if he is any kind respectable coach, he won't give you any problems. If he is not, then be prepared to give him a T. I have found coaches give you more respect if you take care of business. I don't like to give T's to visiting coaches so sometimes i give a little more slack to the visiting coach.

sharing a story
 

I would make sure to inform the supervisor of the situation and make sure he knows your seeing him again within the same week.
If I were sent in there again, I would go in with the same attitude, that nothing happened, and if he mentions it, I would say this is a new game and a new day, the slate has been wiped clean.
Good luck this weekend. Coaches are getting tired and the season is getting long. Be prepared for this to start happening more, especially as we get into late February conference play with teams that are at the bottom of the league and are frustrated.
More importantly, understand the philopsophies of the supervisor your working for!! (ie will he support you or will he "ride the fence" in fear of losing the league, or will he side with the coaches??)

Know your surroundings. Good luck.

OK, at the risk of getting blasted, how do you know he
wasn't joking this time? Would you have not T'ed him
if he had not said anything to you about your partner
before the game? It sounds like you do have a good
rapport with this coach, maybe a little to good if he
felt comfortable saying that to you. Maybe the thing to do
is to say something like "I couldn't let that comment go"
during handshakes tonight before the game. Or maybe you
should just start treating him as just another @sshole
coach, there are some out there you know ;). Let us know
what happens.

Why? (Use of the NBA Mechanic)
 

Why are you using NBA switching? If you did what you were suppose to do according to the normal mechanics, you would have never had to hear what he said. At least at the time he said it.

Understand that the NBA does things much different because all the parties are professionals and have been in the game for a very long time. And they will have to see those officials several times a year more than likely. And it is to their benefit to treat each other as professionals or there is going to be a constant problem. That is why the NF and College both have officials going away from the table. Even with an experienced official, you cause yourself more problems by trying to explain things right after a foul. At least if he has displeasure with your call, he has to yell it at you. Then when you give him a T the whole gym knows why. I might be harping on this, but I think the use of that mechanic caused the problem, not necessarily what he said. Now more than likely, you have to explain what he did instead of it being clear to others what he said. And even if you give him a T and it is justified, it might seem personal to him and others that observe the events. Not unless he was very annimated about what he felt about your partner.

Peace

Re: Why? (Use of the NBA Mechanic)
 

My guess, Rut, is that tony's working a pro league. Or at least, a pro-am league. That's why his crew was using the pro mechanics. That's also why he has the same coach on the road so soon after having him last night. Just my guess, but I think it would explain your question.

Chuck

Re: Level was never stated.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

My guess, Rut, is that tony's working a pro league. Or at least, a pro-am league. That's why his crew was using the pro mechanics. That's also why he has the same coach on the road so soon after having him last night. Just my guess, but I think it would explain your question. Chuck

Well that does make a difference, but he never stated the level and that would be guessing by both of us.

And having the same coach back to back has happen to me twice this year. And it had nothing to do with a Pro-Am League of any kind. That just happens sometimes and there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. Unless you only work for one assignor and all your games and scheduling come from that person alone. But if you get games from many different sources, you might see a team 5 times like I will be seeing before the year is out. It just happen that way. I did not know who everyone was playing when I accepted the games.

Peace

Sounds like a pretty cut-and-dried technical to me..why are you even doubting yourself in the slightest?

As far as his pre-game comments about the other ref, my response would have been, "I've worked with him before and he does a nice job."

As one of the others stated, sounds like maybe you have a fairly close relationship w/ this coach and need to let him know that it's all business once you step on the floor.

Z

"then he points at my partner and says, "that fu[king a$$hole aint worth sh1t."

Why did you let this foul-mouthed jerk remain in the game? You didn't defend your partner by giving just a T.

Bob

im not going to eject a coach for that alone. i whacked him and told my partners what had happened. the coach had no rope for the rest of the night, and he knew it. his assistant took over from that point.

in pregame i discuss with my partners if we tech a coach we do not speak to him on any level for the next 4 or five game min. last night we did not speak to him for the remainder of the game. 1-9 was thrown out the window, he had used those babies up.

What do you mean by 1-9 was thrown out the window?

sharing a story
 

1 being ignore the problem totally...10 being Technical Foul. 2 through 9 are creations that you use to help bring a coach back to the adult world from the "child world" (i.e. to a diffuse a coach).....certain responses being polite and nice, being stern with a voice, a scowl, the stop sign for a warning, these types of responses are 2 through 9.

What do you mean by 1-9 was thrown out the window?
[/B][/QUOTE]

when dealing with technical foul type situations it is commonly referred to as a 1-10 situation. where 1 you ignore what has been said and 10 as a technical. which means 2-9 skills are the levels/ways of difusing a situation withiut ignoring and without tech'ing. 2-9 skills of address do not come naturally to me, therefor i have to try to identify the proper way to handle situations that do not require a tech but do require attention.

let me try to break this down as well as i can.
in the posted situation 1-10 could be broken down as follows.
1. ignore what is said.
2-8. address the situation
9. warn the coach
10. technical foul.
this coach will not be ignored nor warned the rest of the game, if he gets out of line he is done. he has lost all priveledges of address by provoking me to go straight to the tech. keep in mind this is a rare situation where as a crew we will no longer deal with his antics.
i have also had to whack a coach this early in a game but the coach did not burn his ability to talk to us through out the game.

i will try to post a full 2-9 breakdown in the near future. hope this explains what i meant.

Re: sharing a story
 

nicely stated bbarnaky

For tony and BBarnaby:

I like the "Richter Scale" for coaches. My quesiton is, do you use this scale when communicating with your partner? In other words, during a time-out, do you go to your partner and say, "I just hit level 8 with Coach A"? That way your partner knows that next time Coach A talks to him, he gets his official level 9 warning.

I'm just curious. I hadn't heard of the 1-10 system before and I think I like it.

Chuck

I just use a "pass/fail". I call it the sphincter scale.

yes, communication is very important.

i finished working my game tonite and all went well. when i shook the coaches hands tonite i stated that today is a new day and all slates are clean.

after i thought about the game tonite i am glad i forgave the coach. he made a bad play, like i make bad plays at times. i know when i make a bad call i hope that poeple will forget quickly.

i am actually glad that i do not have a long contreversial story for everyone, though they are fun reading.

Sounds good, but it sure would have been fun to read how
you tossed his @ss 2 minute in! :)

I do not care what level of game this was. What that coach said is a flagrant technical foul. No one has the right to say that and stay in the game.

Quote:

I do not care what level of game this was. What that coach said is a flagrant technical foul. No one has the right to say that and stay in the game.

this is a possibility, but i did not think the ejection was appropriate. hindsight i think i did the right thing because the situation went from intense to obsolete in just a few moments. had this coach thrown a fit or something similar i would have no problem ejecting him.

I agree. I see know reason to let this guy stick around.

In fact, if this happened to me, and I didn't eject him, I could be suspended for two games. The NCHSAA requires us to eject any player, coach, or bench personnel who directs profanity at an official or opponent. The individual is alos suspended for 2 games. If you don't take care of business in such a situation, you'll be the one sitting home for two games.

this is a judgement call. and if i ejected every player that cursed at me or fellow official, i would have to eject quite a few people.

I.E. thats bulsh1t, are yoy f*cking kidding me, just a couple.

but i do see where you are coming from on the ejection.

Tony, could you help me get this rule implemented in my rec league? :) Whenever I call a T for even the most blatant profanities, I get pulled aside by my supervisors and told that I should let that go. :rolleyes:

(Note: I follow the basic rule of "If you shout it so everyone can hear it; it's a T. - No, I don't give technicals for every 'sh*t' you hear after players miss rebounds.")

With all due respect, maybe that's why you have so many people cursing you. We have a zero tolerance for such behavior and, as such, have very, very little problem with it.

I think crew is referencing his experiences in the college level here on this thread and not high school. I think at the high school level we have to me a referee and a disciplinarian when it comes to profanity (unfortunately because the parents and coaches do not control it from the get go).

hearing people curse is a common occurrence in the games i work, and doesn't bother me unless directed towards me. i can be quite foul as well, though i do not curse on the court.

i guess it just comes down to personal preference.

I hope I don't sound thin-skinned, but this kind of post is what set me off once before with Eli (eroe). I'm sure that the intent is not to "big time" anybody, but it sounds like you're saying, "Come on guys, stop being such babies. It's time to grow up and start thinking like college officials". It just rubs me wrong.

Who cares if tony is talking about high school or college? TH's point, and I think he's right, is that if the ACC commissioner told his officials to T Coach K every time he loudly dropped an F-bomb, he would stop doing it. That's all.

We all understand that for whatever reason, it's accepted for the big time guys to curse, even at the officials. We see it all the time and it's let go. We understand that. The point is merely that if they made it clear that it wouldn't be tolerated, it would go away -- or the coaches would be sitting in the locker rooms. Can anybody disagree with that? And more than that, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Chuck

As I have stated previously, what the coach said in the orginal posting is a flagrant foul no matter what the level of play. I am a structural design engineer has has been on or around construction site for most of my life. I can swear with the best of them. If you hair is straight I will can curl it; if you are bald I can make it grow; if you have hair I can make it fall out; you can see where I am going with this sentence. When I am on a construction site I can hold my best with any construction worker (by the way for all of you constructions workers, my father was a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters for over fifty years when he passed away). In fact my friends will tell you that my language is quaitly colorful. The point is that a sporting event (I know that the NBA/WNBA is entertainment, but that is another story), is no place for inappropriate language, especially at the college level and above, because the players and coaches are all college educated and society norms expect that the people involved will conduct themselves as ladies and gentlemen. I am completely baffled why an official would not eject a coach for what was said in the original posting. This is the type of conduct that makes it harder for the officials that come afterword to do their jobs. Sometimes as officials we are our own worst enemies, and this is a good case in point.

Not Big Timing anybody ChuckElias. I have worked highschool and college for the past several years. I have cut my highschool schedule down due to my limited availability and the good fortune of getting a nice college schedule the past 2 season. That could all change, we know how officiating is.
I was merely stating the point that we don't allow this behavior for sure at the high school level. It is tolerated a bit more at the college level. And yes, I agree, if the NCAA and Commissioners told us to penalize this conduct more severely than we would. Thats what we do, follow directions and assess penalties and violations.

Just to add to the big time comment, I also happen to be very involved in my local high school association helping others and training. I feel compelled to give back to the game due to so many other people that came before me that has helped myself and others reach/attain a small amount of success. I also help out in summer beginner officiating camps and help teach officials the basics of high school officiating, mechanics, and how to objectively watch themselves on tape.

PLEASE DON'T ACCUSE ME OF THIS!!! I was just stating the point that it is tolerated a bit more at the NCAA level. BOTTOM LINE.

With all the time I put into this avocation of mine, as you could all see from my post I was a bit aggravated at ChuckElias' comments about me.

Have a good day. And, I will enjoy my day off from the bball court and watch the NFL playoffs.

Well, I guess I'm not the only thin-skinned one. I guess I can feel a little better about that. If you look at the very beginning of my previous post, Barnaby, you'll see that I said that I didn't really think you were trying to "big time" us here. But that is, for better or for worse, the impression that I get from some of the posts made by Eli, and sometimes by tony and you. I know it's not an intentional, snobby thing. But sometimes it sounds that way. That's exactly why I said I didn't want to seem thin-skinned.

I didn't accuse you of anything. I was merely trying to point out that, while I understood the point you were making, that point should be irrelevant. It shouldn't matter whether we're discussing high school, college, big time college, or pro. That kind of language should not be tolerated at all, especially when directed at an opponent or official.

So, having said all that, I hope you too will sit back and enjoy the NFL today, have a Diet Coke and a smile. I'm blissfully serene today after staying up till 11:30 to see my Patriots prevail in OT (with a little help from the Referee!). WOO-HOO!!

Chuck

sharing a story
 

Boy did you get some help in that Patriots game!! I still think that was a fumble. I bet they will make some type of clarification next year on that particular play in their rule books and interpretations.

ChuckElias, I have been on the other end of that with my Buccanneers a few years ago against the Rams in the NFC Championship game. That play actually changed the rule and the interpretation for the previous seasons. I feel bad for Oakland, but I'm hoping the Bucs make a run after Gruden. I think he is a great coach.

Re: What help.
 

The refs did not help at all. They just did not stop New England from doing anything. If they disserved to win, they should have played defense in overtime.

Peace

Re: Re: What help.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

The refs did not help at all. They just did not stop New England from doing anything. If they disserved to win, they should have played defense in overtime.

Rut, I don't mean the refs, in general. I mean the Referee, the guy who reviews the replays. He looked at the "fumble" and ruled that there was conclusive evidence to show that it was an incomplete pass. That helped the Patriots immensely. If he had ruled that the play would stand (as I personally think it should have), the game was over. The Raiders just had to take a knee 3 times, b/c the Pats were out of time-outs. Instead, the Pats retained possession and drove for the tying field goal. So the Referee helped the Patriots big time, whether he was right or wrong, he kept the game going when it would otherwise have been over.

Chuck

Since when does an official need his supervisor's approval or instructions to eject a coach for calling him or one of his partner a f****** a*****.

I cannot believe that any official (with the exception of Crew) would allow a coach to stay in the game.

Mark,

NFHS rule 10-4-1a & c address this issue -- disresptectfully addressing an official and using profane or inappropriate language.

At no point in the rule book does it say that this is an automatic flagrant technical foul on the offender. The only automatic flagrant fouls for bench personnel are fighting or leaving the confines of the bench during a fight.

Personally, I'd address the situation exactly how Tony did -- give the technical and see what happens afterwards. If the problem corrects itself (which it did) you go back to playing the game. If not, you can always come back and issue the second technical and eject the coach.

Talking about a Coach cursing out your partner to you...

I was sitting around with some officials at a local bar a few years back and overheard the following conversation:

Referee: "So, Coach X really did call me that?"

Umpire: "Yeah, he called you a Son of a B****."

Referee: "And you didn't T him up?"

Umpire: "Would you have?"

Referee: after some thought..."probably not"

About that time, the local sports came on the late night news on the bar T.V.
Sure enough, there was this guy, I'll call the Umpire, standing by Coach X and you could read his lips while he was pointing..."that Son of a B****"
Some of the officials there laughed, some of the officials there were shocked.

My point is this. This Umpire guy was just starting out as a Varsity offcial. The Referee guy had been doing Varsity for about 3 years. This Umpire was good from the get go. He has since moved up into the top ranks of his association as has the Referee guy. In fact the Umpire guy did a State Championship game last year! He is also moving up the ranks as a college official. He is about 30 years old. My guess is he will be around for awhile.

My observation is this. crew's attitude goes hand in hand with some of these top officials. In fact, crew did something this up and coming H.S. official DID NOT do! He T'd the coach up! My guess is he even feels bad about it.

Politics are alive and well. What's a Rookie to do?

I cannot believe that any official (with the exception of Crew) would allow a coach to stay in the game.

And Drake. :)
I agree with what Brad said.
If the Technical remedies the situation, 'nuff said.

I have no problem with throwing a simple (for lack of a better term) T for a comment like that regardless of it being directed at my partner or myself. Nor would I fault anyone for considering it flagrant.

The question I find me asking myself is this, "What kind of comment could a coach or player for that matter say that would be so 'extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct'(quoting 4-19-4) that would I have no choice but to consider it flagrant?"

I think it would come down to the situation, context, and my prior relationship to the individual. All of it subjective.

4-19-4, (Vulgar, Abusive)I read this more like a potential fight. Two players squaring off. One player trys to start a fight with a few choice words. Probably more out of control of himself.

If a player or bench personnel (including the head coach) calling an official a f****** a***** is not vulgar or abusive conduct, then the sign of the apocolypse is upon use. Officals are being subjected to increasing amounts of abusive conduct over the last ten years or so, and this is a perfect textbook example of a flagrant technical foul. And when the conduct comes from a head coach (high school or college) it sets an example for his players. If the coach is allowed to stay in the game it sends a message to his players that it is acceptable to address an official in that manner. If an official allows a coach or player to remain in the game after this type of conduct I would suggest that the offcial get a backbone transplant. When an official lets a coach or player get away with this type of misconduct he makes it more difficult for the officials who come after him to handle this coach. There really cannot be any reason for not ejecting a coach who calls an official a f****** a******. Absolutely none.

I've never had a coach say this,( knock on wood) so i guess i can't say what i would do until it happens. I didn't say the rule was limited to a potential fight. I was only commenting on the rule and what is the most probable situation you might encounter concerning this rule and that is my guess on why they wrote the rule the way they did write it. Would it matter to you if he said it quietly to you when you are standing next to him or if he yells it so others can hear?