Michigan joins the rest of us
 

With volleyball in the fall and girls basketball in the winter, Michigan is adjusting to the new realities.

Story at: http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...=2007708160348

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Old news. And, other states have some sports "off season" from the norm.

So, why does Hawaii play girls basketball in the spring, and Georgia play softball in the fall?

Volleyball may have aligned with the "rest of the country", but other sports in other states are still not uniform. but since I promised myself to stay off the soapbox, I won't get into my opinions again.. Besides, CoachP shares my sentiments. :p

I'm waiting for outdoor ice hockey in the summer. :eek:

It's called Water Polo

Not a joking matter.

The 1984 Polish National hockey team all drowned during spring training.

:(

Actually, because of the Michigan ruling, Hawaii is moving girls b-ball to the winter at the same time as the boys season starting this school year. With the limited number of gyms available, it's going to be a MESS, at least on Oahu.

Do you guys actually think that other states have a lot of gym space? Michigan is a rural state like Illinois and many of the schools in this state do not have multiple gyms. And in many cases the gym used for HS ball is the very same gym they play Junior High and other non-HS activities. I really think once people in Michigan get over what they think the issues are, they will get along just like everyone else. I also read in the article or a response in the forum that said many of the top officials would not be available. Well if you train and give opportunities to other individuals, you might just raise the level of officiating across the board. Some people just need an opportunity and this means you will have many experienced varsity officials that can cover games. I do not think this is a unique situation for Michigan.

Peace

That would explain some of the livestock I encounter at games. :p

My personal opinion is that this first year is going to be one of adjustments, and within 2-3 years thinks will stabilize a bit.

Last weekend, I was talking to ref crew before one of the games (not sure if RM is still a trainer here), and for basketball, one idea is to have the new(er) officials call middle school girls basketball in the areas where that remains a fall sport so that they get experience for the winter high school season.

We will make do the best we can.

While the story of the lawsuit has been around for years, I thought some would be interested in an update.

I'm sure the sun will come up tomorrow, but Michigan still has some adjusting to do.

I have a niece who played water polo in HS. She has said that if she had a dollar for every time someone asked her about the "horses drowning", she'd be a millionaire. She said she would spend all the money on sex, drugs and rock & roll - but without the sex and the drugs. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/rockout.gif

I'd spend half on sex, drugs and booze -- and waste the other half.

?
 

maybe because they are trying to work around the rainy season? I would think they try to play softball/baseball during the driest part of the year?

Originally Posted by Stat-Man
So, why does Hawaii play girls basketball in the spring, and Georgia play softball in the fall?


I can't speak for Georgia, but in Hawaii the driving factor was very limited gym and field space, especially among the private schools. Of the 20 or so private schools on Oahu (some co-ed, some all-boys, some all-girls) there are only about 10 gyms, and 2-3 of those are really inadequate for D-I HS games, so the schools with gyms have to share with those without. And the public schools and private schools do not share facilities (with the exception of Aloha Stadium for football games). The same is true of baseball, softball, and soccer fields...plus 2 of the NCAA D-II schools (men & women) on island use the same gyms as well; and UH facilities are used only for state tournaments. Therefore, it made sense to separate the boys and girls basketball, baseball, softball, soccer, and volleyball seasons, and fortunately the weather allows any sport to be played any time of the year there.

I called private school basketball in Hawaii the last 3 years and 2 more years a few years before that...there are separate associations for the private and public leagues and I happened to join the private school assoc when I moved there. When the boys and girls seasons were split there were usually 2-3 games (some combination of varsity, JV, freshman) per gym per night, 4-5 nights per week plus 3-5 more on Saturdays...and that doesn't even include middle school games. The gyms were in constant use. Now that boys and girls will play in the same season it will be a scheduling nightmare (and not only for games but for double the practice time now). One of the benefits of Hawaii is that some practices and conceivably even some lower-level games could be played outside, but no one wants that. On top of that, there is a shortage of varsity-capable officials and the ILH (private league) coaches and AD's have, in my opnion anyway, far too much power in determining who they will accept as varsity officials. On top of everything else, societally Hawaii is a very entrenched place...change in general is not welcome and feet will be dragged.

As I said in an earlier post, it will be a MESS! And I don't mean to imply it's necessarily a bad thing...just that it will be ugly there for 2-3 years (or longer??). Until they figure it out and all the parties involved decide to accept the inevitable and move forward, it will be a mess.

I live and officiate in Michigan. It is my opinion that the lawsuit was wrongly decided by a judge who did not, and does not, understand the purpose of high school athletics.

Having said that, the woe-is-me lines I have heard from many in my state are wearing thin. We'll adjust and we'll be just fine. As Rut pointed out, it's not like Michigan has any fewer gyms than high schools in other states. Now the boys and girls basketball teams will have to share gym time? I suppose if the girls volleyball teams were practicing out in the snow, that might take a bigger adjustment, but it turns out that volleyball practices take place ... wait for it ... in a gym. I don't think the concerns about lack of quality officials are legitimate either. In my area, we've all received our assignments and the assignors are not pulling out their hair about any shortages. Assignors around here have insisted that if you want to work boys games you'll work girls games, too (and vice versa). So, for good or for ill, boys and girls will have the same "quality."

Parenting has taught me that "equality" does not mean "sameness." And, even though Michigan's sport seasons are now the "same" for boys and girls, we still have work to do (as most every state and area do) before we reach the desired and deserved equality. The lawsuit was a crutch, and a poor one at that. But where our feet take us now that we're done with the crutches is up to us.

I think I have a very good understanding of High School Athletics. What is so great about having two different seasons for the players? Also keep in mind that the rest of the country plays basketball at the same time for both genders. What is the benefit? All I have heard was official's shortage and gym space (which are problems around the country). Are the girl's getting more volleyball scholarships?

Peace

I do not at all question your "very good understanding of High School Athletics." However, if you think your final question is probative, then I do question how well you understand the purpose of high school athletics.

The purpose of high school athletics is to provide a venue for parents who have failed in their prior sporting endeavors to live vicariously through their children's accomplishments. That's why the amount of importance put on high school athletics is grossly out of proportion to academic achievement. :(

Stop being evasive. Just say that the reason guys like you dislike this change is because it makes you have to work more games in a shorter period of time. If you are unwilling to be candid about why this was a benefit when the rest of the country then I question your knowledge of high school sports. High School sports have been operating the with girl's and boy's basketball being played at the very same season for years with no major problems. I see no benefit to have the girl's play a different season, none which so ever. And maybe it was arguments like yours that made the judge say things need to change. I just wanted a candid explanation that made sense. It is clear there was no argument but you were afraid of change because it has always been that way.

Peace

Whatever, man. You make so many assumptions. I personally prefer having the boys and girls both play basketball in the same season. More than 80% of Michigan schools, and more than 70% of Michigan high school female athletes, preferred things the way they were. Just because the change benefits me personally does not mean the lawsuit was correctly decided.

I am not wishing to be "evasive," but I do not have the time or inclination to try to educate you on this point. If you truly are interested -- if you truly have NO idea why there might be some benefit to high school athletes in having separate seasons, then feel free to peruse the Michigan High School Athletic Association website (www.mhsaa.com) archives. (Some of the "explanations," as I earlier indicated, I disagree with -- e.g., shortage of facilities and officials -- not everything the MHSAA put out should be taken as the Gospel.)

When you get outside of the bigger schools (Mich uses classes based on enrollment A-B-C-D) is where all the problems lie.

Most of the larger A schools and "some" B schools have gym sizes to accomodate everybody but that is not the norm.

With most schools there are 2 V teams 2 jv teams and 2 freshman hoops teams with even an A and B team on some freshman boys teams. All these teams need games and practices in the same gym all week.

Volleyball normally filled up their game schedules with a week night and all day Saturday tourneys/invites. So they only required (a lot of times) one night a week for games. And one BBall court holds 2 VB courts for practices which for a lot of rural schools is V and JV only. So their practice scheduling was much easier....And they managed to play dozens more matches than other states because of the longer season.

Girls had a great benefit playing hoops on Tue and Thurs in the fall as they did not have to compete with boys sports (friday night football)
Girls VB will enjoy some of that benefit now except for the saturday part (college football coverage)

My biggest gripe is they passed it off as a gender equity suit so volleyball would match the rest of the country....which btw 10 years ago 8 other states played GBB/Fall GVB winter.

Just for perspective. The school I grew up in had one gym. This gym somehow accomodated Varsity and JV boys, Varsity and JV girls, and middle school boys and girls. It can be done. MS practiced in the am before school. Boys and girls both combined their jv and varsity practices (small schools have smaller teams and can do this). They rotated one team practicing at 3:30 and the other team practicing at 5:30.

This is no different than in my state and I am sure in other states. Now the bigger schools might have a Sophomore A, B and C team and a Freshman A, B and sometimes C teams. So that is a Varsity team, JV team (varsity players with a couple of non-varsity players), 2 or 3 sophomore teams and 2 or 3 freshman teams. This is almost never an issue with the bigger schools because they have a field house (3 or 4 courts just in the field house) along with a main gym.

I started officiating in rural Illinois and you were lucky if a school had 3 teams per gender. Everyone had a varsity team and a sophomore team, but freshman teams were not always a constant because there were not enough kids to fill those teams. The way I understand this was most gyms have the multiple hoop gyms (courts running sideways through the main court) and that would be how a lot of practices would be run. The girls would practice and one time and the boys would practice at another time. They way it was done is one would practice right after school and the other might practice later that evening. This of course included when both teams were around. When the season started and one team had to go on the road, this was not the same issue.

I am not talking multiple gyms. I am talking a very small school with one gym for everything. Most of the schools in my state do not have over 1000 kids in the high school. And in some case the HS is the same building that the JH is located and they have to share the gym with those kids where many games at those levels are also played during a portion of the HS season.

You say that the girl's would have the benefit of their own nights. In my state they do not play girl's and boy's games on the same night most of the time. Girls usually play on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday afternoon throughout the state and they start a week earlier (Week before Thanksgiving) and the playoffs start a couple of weeks before the boys playoffs do. Boys usually play on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday and they start a week later (Thanksgiving week). There are not many schools or conferences that even try to play varsity contests on the same night. Now it is no secret that the boys usually get the bigger crowds and the bigger attention (unless the girl’s team is a state power). I do not think moving the season would help that. Just like you do not get a lot of volleyball attendance, I am sure nothing would change in this state.

That was 10 years ago. There was obviously a reason they changed. Change is not always bad thing. I thought the issue was about scholarships and playing in the normal season for college recruiters? Maybe the lack of defense of these issues is the very reason the lawsuit was successful and now there is change. If you ask me gym space and playing in their very own season is not a very good reason. It appears the Judge felt the same way. ;) I can see how a female basketball player or soccer player might be hurt if a college has to make a special trip or change their schedule to recruit a player from Michigan. Now this might not be that big of a deal Midwestern colleges, but for the bigger programs in volleyball are mostly on the west coast and I am sure it was inconvenient at best for many of those programs to come out to Michigan (or any other state that had this change) during an "off season" to recruit. I am not under the impression that volleyball is like basketball where it is played year round across the country (I am sure there are exceptions).

I equate this issue as what is happening here. Our state has had 2 classes for 30 years. Now the IHSA is going to 4 classes. Now I personally do not like it, but the change is here. There is nothing we can do about it now and many of the arguments to keep the 2 class system are minimal. The rest of the country has more than 2 classes and in some cases 5 and 6 classes. People gave similar arguments that it would change greatly affect the balance of competition and would change why people attended games. The more I think of it what I was holding on to was tradition because it was always done that way. I am sure we will get over it just like everyone else has had to deal with it.

Peace

Of course they did. That is all they know. If we use that argument and change the topic there are a lot of things those females would not be able to because that is the way they were raised.

I did not ask you to give me every single angle to this argument. But the fact that you cannot or you are unwilling to talk about the issue speaks volumes. Like Snaq said, I grew up in a small HS and we had one main gym and we made it work. Sorry that this discussion is way too over your head. I asked the question because I was waiting for something compelling to say this is the reason Michigan should stay this way. I am also a native Michigander so this issue has always fascinated me.

Peace

Michigan was ranked 4 and 5 for GBB and GVB scholarships out of 50 states. If it was about scholarships, any judge could have seen that stat and threw the case outta the window.

Bottom line, 2 parents of VB players were upset because their daughters needed to make the varsity squad as a freshman so they could be seen by College VB coaches by their junior season because other states players were being recruited at different (earlier) times. These mom's lawyers wrapped this up in a gender equity suit, called it a Title IX issue, highlighted a bunch of sports where boys and girls played at different seasons and sued crying GENDER EQUITY!!!TITLE IX !!!. Said boys and girls should be equally advantaged or disadvantaged when it comes to sports seasons. The MHSAA lost.

The MHSAA compliance plan rotated a bunch of sports so boys/girls golf, Tennis, soccer, what have you, were all in the same season or arranged it so all the boys and girls were either equally advantaged or disadvantaged.

This did not sit well with the moms and lawyers because GBB/GVB remained the same. That's when it got ugly for 4 more years of appeals and such.

Basically all the moms were after was getting VB to the fall so they could start their precious club ball at the same time as other states.

Apples and oranges Jeff. ;) JMO

I never had this problem in HS. I went before basketball was invented. :o

You said my example was apples and oranges, so is this example. Golf, tennis and soccer are not revenue college sports or revenue sports at the HS level either. If you need to know golf, tennis and soccer are all played in the fall or spring depending on gender. I am sure this is done on the either side to prevent taking kids away from the major sports.

I believe Lacrosse plays both genders at that same time. After all these sports you mentioned are outdoor sports and it would be very hard to move these sports to the winter in the Midwest. We all know that football, basketball and baseball/softball are king. The other sports would have little participation if you moved those sports to other times.

It is changing, now what? The bottom line the sky is not falling and you will adjust and get used to it like everyone else. All these other issues that you keep bring up are not very good reasons to keep girl's basketball in the fall. If the rest of the country is not having an issue with this, why is Michigan so behind the times on this? All I am hearing is little sarcastic comments about why the lawsuit was really brought. I just wanted to hear a compelling argument for things to stay the same. If all you can come up with are shots on Title IX and the motives behind the lawsuit that explains why this lawsuit was successful.

Peace

I was gonna say that the whole be seen by their junior year was not right. The vast majority of VB schloarships are taken care of at Club tourneys. Been doing VB for a couple of years and have never heard of a college coach in the house at a HS match. Go to a club tourney and they are all over the place.

The precious club mommies are not that different then other parents. Why don't they play AAU BB in the winter for HS age kids ?

I don't think you change things because there's no compelling reason to stay the same. I think you change things because they're broken.

From the evidence, this wasn't broken (evidently Michigan girls did not trail other states in scholarships) but the courts decided otherwise.

The courts made the decision for a reason. I am sure there was more to the issue than scholarships. That is just an educated guess on my part

I know it is easy to over-simplify these issues. I was just saying that for whatever reason the change was made, the change is doable.

Peace

Possibly too tangantial, but what do you think of colleges that play their golf as fall-only, and baseball/softball as fall-only sports? There is a small college conference in new england that does just that. Is it discriminatory in your opinion?

So... golf for boys is fall and golf for girls is spring? Last I checked golf courses were full of men and women at the same time. What does gender have to do with it? So are Illinois golf parents gonna sue because there kids do or don't play in the Fall? And what does revenue have to do with anything? This is HS athletics, extracurricular, etc.....


Lacrosse!!??!! If it wasn't for Duke, who'd know what the heck that was!?:D



If Michigan was so far behind the times, why are we in the top 5 for girls scholarships in the country for those 2 sports? Maybe all the other states are doing it wrong if all HS sports is about scholarships and revenue....

I can accept change,..I will accept change. I will coach in the winter, and maybe get Mick to officiate one of my contests.

But, I don't need to give a compelling argument on why to stay the same. I thought the law was about innocent until proven guilty? It wasn't broke don't mess with it, and I find it hard to believe that Michigan will pass the likes of Cal, Tex, NY...whoever, in number of scholarships.

Oh, sure you would, ...to make me pay for your long week in the U.P. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sp...confounded.gif

But the last time I checked football was the most popular boys sport in this country. If you played Boy's golf at the same time it would not bother me. Moving the golf season would very likely take some kids away from the golf team and in some cased would eliminate many golf programs. This is the same reason boy's volleyball plays in the spring. If you put it during the fall, you might not have a team.

Seriously, Lacrosse is one of the most growing sports in my state. There are teams popping up everyone on both girl's and boy's sides. Kids who do not like baseball or softball but like a little contact play this sport.

I will ask you the same question. Why can you not achieve the very same things under the same seasons as everyone else? If Girl's basketball is so big, it seems to me you might have people attend games that might ordinarily not attend those games because they are used to watching that sport when everyone else is playing. What is the big deal? And if many games in Michigan are going to be going to girl/boy doubleheaders, I think that would raise the level of interest. That does not work very well here, but there are many states this works very well.

If you do not need to give a compelling argument, then guys like you should stop complaining about it multiple times a year? We have talked about this issue a hundred, thousand, million times on this board. I would have never known this was even an issue until guys kept complaining about it. I did not even realize that other states even did this 10 years ago because no one from those states came here *****ing about it. I did live next to a state that claimed playing 6 on 6 Basketball was the best thing and should never change. When they changed after awhile everyone got over it and moved on and get over it. And some of the very same reasons to keep it the same were the reasons you are giving here. There were people that felt it would hurt tradition and what was once special about their state. Now this is a complete non-issue from what I understand.

The change is going to happen whether you are on board or not. This was fought hard in court and it has been decided. And because you felt it was not broke, does not mean many others did not feel it was broke. And I bet everyone will wonder why after a year or two what the big fight was over anyway.

Peace

Wow. "Those females," Jeff? Your patronizing attitude about females and your superior knowledge about what is good for them would make you fit right in with your brethren on the Supreme Court (read Justice Ginsberg's dissent in Gonzales v. Carhart for a well-crafted dismantling of your notions of females limited capacity to function in a world without your guidance and protection). Tsk, tsk.

Wasn't that the case that decided women couldn't be prohibited from breast feeding in public during roller coaster rides? :confused:

Patronizing???

It sounds to me like we have a lot of males upset that their lives are going to be altered because girl's basketball is being moved (e.g. less big games). I think my record of equality and standing for equality is long documented on this site. If anything you sound like the old segregationist that complain that things should stay the same because that is the way we have always done it. Not that anyone here is a student and has to make college choices based on this factor. And from what I understand this was more of a volleyball lawsuit than one from the basketball side. I did not play volleyball and I do not understand the culture of volleyball. I am sure some of this debate rests in that level of understand. But we are on a basketball board and I have yet to hear anything that is solid other than opinions and “I think it is a bad idea.”

When I asked you a very fair question you tried to hide behind the argument by saying it was too complicated. You still have not said why this is a bad thing. ;)

Also for the record, if my state tomorrow changed the girl's season to the fall, it would not change my life one bit. I do not work girl's basketball and it certainly would not want to work another sport during the football season. I do not work volleyball for the very same reason.

I do always find it funny the very people that are never subject to discrimination are always the people trying to claim "discrimination" is situations it does not apply.

Peace

Did you just use "Ginsberg" and "well crafted dissent" in the same sentence? Hmmm.

Nah, it was the case that decided that women couldn't be trusted to make medical decisions in consultation with their physicians....

What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion? This is a sport which no one is privileged to play. There are college scholarships at stake and I am sure nothing will change because seasons do.

Guess what, you can throw all the barbs out there, it is going to change anyway. Get used to it or get out. It really is that simple.

Peace

IMO, this arguement is baseless. A decision has been made combine the season and live with. We as offficials do not have an arguement in this fight. We can work the games offered to us or not. I live in an areas were the seasons are combined, the gyms are smaller and I do not here the coaches, players or officials complaining about the two sports being played in the same season. We have bigger issues in society to worry about. Issues like Jena6 in Louisiana.

respectfully

I am not upset that my life will be altered (as I indicated, the change is preferable to me), but I do think the court issued a decision that was wrongly decided. To be sure, some people just don't like change. And, to be sure, Michigan will be able to adjust.

We can certainly agree that your record is long documented on this site. As for the characterization of your record, we'll have to agree to disagree.

:confused:

Thank you for this significant contribution you make to the quality of life of high school female athletes. ;)

I agree that it is too bad when people claim discrimination where it does not exist. For example, the parents who started the whole "change of seasons" lawsuit. But I am not claiming any kind of discrimination here. The parents were not attempting to unlawfully "discriminate" against me or others. The court, in its decision, is not "discriminating" against girls or boys or hermaphrodites. The fact that girls and boys will play basketball in the same season is not, in my opinion, a form of unlawful discrimination (nor was it unlawful discrimination, in my opinion, for girls and boys to play in different seasons). I do think girls experience unlawful discrimination in educational athletics more than boys. But I don't see any "discrimination" in the court's ruling or the fact that Michigan is having to make adjustments. It just is what it is. As truerookie points out, we'll just live with it. And we'll be fine. (In that, I agree with you Jeff.)

Although I am not here claiming any discrimination in this discussion, I do claim every right to point out discrimination. And I caution you Jeff to not conclude (based on, what, message board postings?!) that someone else has never experienced discrimination. You don't know my "characteristics" and my experiences. You just make lots of assumptions about them.

I'm done in this thread....

Once again your post says volumes. Unless you are a lawyer or unless your kids are greatly affected, why are you *****ing about it? Get over it; it is going to happen no matter what you or I personally think one way or another. If there was no discrimination, then you would be playing basketball this fall. I do not claim to know everything about this case. I do not that the same issues you guys keep complaining about are the very same issues the rest of the country had to deal with. And as truerookie said, this is not our issue anyway. ;)

Peace

Great - that's all we need - a third group of teams. Does this mean all the schools are going to have to build more locker rooms? :confused:

Also - are we now going to have "Joan Diebler" references?


http://www.teamaustralia.com.au/user...SEX-symbol.gif

Something told me this was coming. :D

Peace

You know me too well, buddy. I guess us Chicago boys can read each other's minds - such as they are. BTW - I think you said you grew up in "rural" Illinois. What HS did you attend? I went to Bloom in Chicago Heights. Our two most famous alumni (besides me, of course) are author and former major league World Series winner Jim Bouton and sports impresario Jerry Colangelo.

Several Factors come to mind:

1. Perhaps because that is approximately your position in number of people in the state (actually #8 in 2000).
2. Some of the larger states have better outdoor climates and probably lose participants to other activities that aren't viable in Michigan

Michigan's position in scholarship rankings probably has very little to do with the season it was played in.

I attended Macomb High School. We were called the Bombers because an alumnus was in the plane that dropped the Atomic Bomb (or one of) on Japan in WWII.

The college that I attended is the only one named the Leathernecks after the Marine Corp.

Now you are from the Washington area. A former Seattle Mariner was from my HS. Phil Bradley.

Peace

But maybe the number of scholarships were higher because coaches had no other games to scout, since Michigan was the only state playing girls basketball or volleyball at those times. Now, the coaches will have to allocate their time among the various states. Maybe the number of scholarships will go down.

BTW, I have no stake in this and I don't really care when they play. I just think the state association should be able to set their own schedules without the courts' interference. Imagine if there was a court ruling that required you to work only girls basketball games, or that you couldn't turn down any games assigned to you.

You can imagine, but it is not the same thing. A state association is a tax payer funded institution. Officials work as independent contactors. That means that if we do not like the conditions or the circumstances, we do not have to work under any circumstances. That also means that the people who hire us do not have to provide certain accommodations. We are not air traffic controllers.

Peace

Thanks for the info. I see you went to Western Illinois. I had a girlfriend who went there (not you, of course). I went to Northern Illinois.

Also, please note that Oregonians do not consider themselves as being from (or in) the Washington area. In fact, when the Seahawks and Mariners were formed, there was a lot of resentment in this state when those teams assumed that fans in the Portland area would "automatically" support them because they were from the Pacific Northwest. Even now, there are probably more 49er fans around here than Seahawk fans (although the gap is getting smaller due to the Seahawks recent success) and tons of baseball fans support the Bay area teams, mostly the Giants.

Of course I am a White Sox and Bears fan.


http://www.garrett.edu/images/Chicag...-Sox-logo1.gif http://www.sportslogos.net/images/Fo...FL/CHI_364.gif

Au contraire.

"A private, non-profit corporation, the MHSAA receives no tax dollars from the state of Michigan or the federal government. Its membership, made up of public, private and parochial schools, pay no membership dues or tournament entry fees — the only one of two such associations nationally to not accept membership dues or tournament entry fees from schools." - from mhsaa.com

Public schools are members if the MHSAA right? If that is the case and an organization that is made up of public schools (who receive tax money to function), the activities of the MHSAA is part of tax base that funds them. And if I am not mistaken, I saw the basketball championships held on Michigan State's campus. That is a publicly funded university and that means the MHSAA does not do things without public institutions.

In my state the IHSA currently does not take dues from the members, but they run tournaments and use public facilities to run those tournaments. If the state legislature wanted to take some legal action against them for discrimination and other legal codes, they would have a legal basis (and this almost happen over a multiplier issue last year). It does not mean that would ever happen, but they could do that.

Peace

Just sayin', Rut,
Breaking laws is one thing.
Being taxpayer funded is quite another. ;)

Maybe I should not have used "taxpayer funded." If an organization is benefiting from things tax payers fund, then they their actions are subjected to any state court even if all their money is not coming from the tax payers directly. So if they are using public buildings and public organizations to make up a group, they are subject to court decisions and state laws.

Guess what, the courts made a decision so their must be some jurisdiction over the MHSAA. ;)

Peace

Well, I guess that (being subject to court decisions and state laws) holds pretty much true for anyone in Michigan without diplomatic immunity, and maybe some of them, too.

There might be some exceptions for all of you in the UP. :p

Interesting JRut....one of the High Schools, here in the Tri-Cities, is called the Bombers. (Richland Bombers) The WWII Atomic Bomb was assembled at the nearby Hanford Federal Nuclear Reservation.