I'm darn sure I understand the "traveling" definition but here is a situation from last night that neither my partner nor I called:

On the rebounding of a missed free throw by A1, A2 rebounds in the air and falls to the floor. He lands right on his behind...fall barely broken by his legs. Coach B wants traveling immediately. I was trail, partner was lead. He passed on the call. I hesitated a half-second to give him a chance to blow it. Like I said, he passed...and before I knew it, MY DAMN whistle didn't go off either. We no-called it. To make matters worse (even though the game went pretty good), A2 passes to A3 who gets fouled by B1. I call the foul, and it's B1's 5th foul. I have to go over to coach to tell him 5th foul on B1. He wants to know why my partner didn't call traveling because "it was his area". I tell him that he may not have known that A2 had possession when he went to the ground. I told him that, for myself, I wasn't sure A2 had possession until he hit the ground. He wasn't happy, but I told him to mark it down as a missed call by both of us and lets play on.

Anyway, after the game, I talk with my partner and he tells me that if a A2 got possession in the air and comes down on the ground it isn't travel. I said, "I think you're wrong. In this situation, I think it is travel." We talked a bit more about it, promised to look it up, and said we'd see each other at the association meeting on Monday night.

After looking it up under Section 43 (Traveling), article 5A, I believe I was correct. Was I?

Let me know Bktballref!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 12th, 2002 at 01:13 PM]

You were correct in your rule interpretation...Travel.

Dan

Thank you, Dan!

Anyone else?

Yesiree, you're correct.

It's as simple as 4-43-5.

A player holding the ball:
May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.

Note the rule doesn't say a word about a pivot foot being established. If he's holding the ball and falls to the floor, he's traveled.

i disagree, though i see your point. think about a player that dives for the ball catches it hits the ground and slides 5 ft. this is not a travel(momentum rule). when big guys go up for a rebound it is very difficult at times to land on 2 ft. i give the rebounder the benifit of the doubt. especially when his feet did not hit the ground first.

bsktballref-i might be taking your ruling out of context-but from what you wrote a player lying on the ground then obtains the ball would be traveling.

traveling question: a2 receives a pass from a1, drbbles picks up the ball with both feet on the ground. any foot can be a pivot right! a2 picks up right foot pivots on left foot puts right foot down 1 step in front of him picks up left foot and lays the ball in. is this a travel?

I'm still wondering on the first situation (need to unpack my rulebooks first :)), but this one is easy. When A2 picks up his right foot, his left foot becomes the pivot. His left foot is then lifted. As long as the left foot is not returned to the ground before a pass or shot, there's no travel.

First, your traveling question: No this is not traveling, because A2 released the ball for a pass or shot before his left foot returned to the floor.


Second, to the more important discussion, when the big guys go up for rebounds: The only benifit of the doubt you can give to the rebounder is whether or not he had control of the ball before his tuckus hits the floor. I do not understand how it being difficult for a rebounder to land with two feet on the floor has any bearing on the play. Once again your a trying to apply a philosophy instead of applying the rules.

And to head off any discussion of the application of advantage/disadvantage to this play: It is not applicable. Advantage/disadvantage applys only to fouls and not violations.

If a A1 gains control of the ball with both feet off of the floor and when returning to the floor A1 falls down while holding the ball or lands on his tuckus first before his feet hit the floor, A1 has committed a traveling floor. Sometimes this is the ending to a spectacular play to gain control of the ball, but that is just the way the ball bounces. Just call the traveling violation and put the ball back into play. And do not lose any sleep over the call. This play happens thousands of times a day everyday of the basketball season.

I am sorry but I did not mean to take the part of the long winded part of the postings subject literally.

4.43.5 SITUATION A: Is it traveling if A1 falls to the floor: (a) while holding the ball; or (b) after being airborne to catch a pass or control a rebound? Ruling: Yes in both (a) and (b).

You officiate D1 basketball and you don't know that a rebounder travels when he catches the ball in flight and then falls to the floor?

That is un****ing believable! :(

A player diving for a ball or a player who gains possession while in the floor are completely different situations than the scenario presented. The original post is traveling in the NF and the NCAA.

Do you own a rule book? :(

who would have guessed you would say that!

Who would have guessed you wouldn't answer the question?

BTW, you forgot your question mark. ;)

yes i own a rule book.
and i wasnt asking a question, it was a rhetorical statement, TONY.

Well, it didn't make much sense, tony.

i dont expect anything to make much sense to you.

Uh,crew,you're in another situation here where you are trying to argue against something that is plainly written and defined in the various rulebooks.That doesn't make too much sense on your part,no matter how you cut it.The only judgement on this play is when the player got possession!Then,you have to follow the written rule.If you have a D1 directive telling you to call this rule differently than written,please share it with us.If a supervisor at the D1 level told you to make the call this way,please share the details with us,also.

No, it was a rhetorical question. Whether a question requires an answer or not, it requires a question mark.

Sounds like I'm starting to get to him. ;)

:rolleyes:
Oh, to have the ability to kill file!

I don't want to throw fuel on the fire here. This is a serious question for tony (crew). After seeing TH's case and rule citations, are you willing to say that this play is a travel? Or do you still think that there is some rule or interpretation that we're missing?

Again, this is a serious question, not aimed at picking a fight. Just trying to get to the heart of the real question.

Chuck

You officiate D1 basketball and you don't know that a rebounder travels when he catches the ball in flight and then falls to the floor?

That is un****ing believable! :(

A player diving for a ball or a player who gains possession while in the floor are completely different situations than the scenario presented. The original post is traveling in the NF and the NCAA.

Do you own a rule book? :(
[/B][/QUOTE]
who would have guessed you would say that! [/B][/QUOTE]Probably the same people that wrote the NCAA rulebook,crew!If you have one,look up R4-64-5AR(a) in it.

Tony (not Crew): I hate to give you the kiss of death, but you hit the nail right on the head. Bravo!

when big guys go up for a rebound, many times their feet get tangled up and makes it difficult to land on 2 feet. is the contact that tangles their feet a foul, rarely. but when 6 or 8 guys go up to get the ball someone is bound to fall to the floor, and sometimes it is the guy who gets the ball. this is when me and my crew will evaluate the situation differently and sometimes(not all the time)give the rebounder the benefit of the doubt. now if this is a cut and dry rebound where he there is no one to get tangled up with then more than likely it is best to call the travel.

Got it.Contact on a rebounder with the ball that knocks him on his butt is the same as contact on an airborne player shooting that knocks him on his butt,also.Forget the rules and don't call anything in either case.Gotta admire your consistency.

There is no judgement involved in a travel call! This situation happened in the DI game I was at today, and was (correctly) called a travel.

Then evidently Tony "crew" Thornton was not officiating the game.

Or members of Crew's crew!:D:

Not so sure about that.
 

Mark there is always judgement in a travel call or many others for that matter. You have to determine control, then pivot foot or feet and determined if and when the pivot foot or feet moved and how. That all takes judgement. It might not take a lot of judgement, but it does take judgement. That is what officiating is all about.

Peace

Judgement
 

By no judgement on a travel, I meant that if there was travelling, you don't think - well, I shouldn't whistle it. It's an automatic call. If there's a slight contact foul by B1 on A1's shot, and the shot is good, you might not whistle it.

And, no, there were no Tonys at the game.

Re: Judgement
 

Travelling is the most inconsistent call in the game. Most officials do not all call the same things as travel. I am not saying that it is not easy to call much of the time, but it is not always called the same. And because of that, judgement comes into play every time. For good, experienced officials like yourself, I am sure you get it right. But we know that everyone is not like yourself and that is why judgement comes into play.


Peace

I've never claimed to call every travel, or that I've never called something that wasn't a travel a travel. However, when I see something that I know is a travel, I call the violation.

When I see contact on the court, however, it is not automatically a foul. In that situation, the entire set of circumstances needs to be reviewed.