I brought this up last year as a shot clock question, and I don't think we ever came to a consensus. For some reason, this popped back into my mind tonight as an end-of-quarter/game situation:

Clock shows a few seconds left in the period as A1 drives the lane and starts to go up for a shot. While A1 is in his shooting motion, but before he releases the shot, B1 fouls A1, and the official blows the whistle with time remaining on the clock. The clock does not stop, the horn sounds, then A1 releases the ball and (of course) the shot goes in.

Do you wave this off as after the horn? Do you say the horn never should have happened in the first place, and allow the shot? For NF officials, would you factor lag time into the equation?

Yes, you wave off the shot if the clock was properly stopped, as lag time would definitely be an issue. If the there was one second on the clock when the whistle was blown, then the clock was stopped properly.

If there was, for example, 1.5 seconds left on the clock when the whistle blew, then the basket is good, and we would put .5 seconds back on the clock.

Put time back on???
 

Why would you put time back on the clock, it is my understanding that human error (lag time) is part of the game to some degree.

this is what i would do, though people may not agree.
nc2a-if i knew the foul occurred before expiration of time i would allow the basket, report the foul, then put time back on the clock. if i did not have definate knowledge of the correct time i would go to my partners and ask for help. if my partners did not know how much time to restore i would use common sense and an educated guess as to how much time to restore provided there was no technical equipment to go to(moniter, play by play, etc.)

in highschool there is a 1 sec. lag time to throw in the mix. this makes the situation very difficult. i would have to decide if the shot would have been released before the expiration of time.

1. if the player had just picked up his dribble and started his 2 step motion-then foul-then horn-then step,step shot-common sense would tell me that the shot would not have been released in time-i would report-wipe the made basket-award 2 freethrows.

2. if the shooter was in a jumpshot motion where the defender holds the shooter and causes him to hesitate his shot unnaturaly-then horn-then release-i would count the basket and award 1 free throw.(if the points scored or free throws awarded did not affect the outcome(situation 1 or 2) of the game-throw this philosophy bullsh1t out the window)

By the sequencing MD gives the horn goes off before A1 releases the ball, so you cannot have a good basket irregardless of the other circumstances. Put A1 on the line, address the lag time issue as to whether to put time on the clock or not, and go on about your business.

Lag Time....
 

Isn't lag time, to some reasonable degree, part of the game?

Quotes???
 

How do you put quotes???

The rules only allow for 1 second of lag time. If the official has definitely knowledge that 1.5 seconds were on the clock, then he can put .5 seconds back on the clock. BTW, lag time is not human error. Lag time is reaction time.

Yes, but only 1 second of lag time is allowed.

Yes, you most certainly can have a good basket.

Mark's play, considering 1.5 seconds remaining at the foul
A1 begins his shooting motion.
B1 fouls.
L blows whistle. The clock is at 1.5 seconds.
The clock now has one second to stop.
The timer fails to properly stop the clock and the horn sounds.
The ball is released.
The shot goes.

The way the play should have happened
A1 begins his shooting motion.
B1 fouls.
L blows whistle. The clock is at 1.5 seconds.
The clock now has one second to stop.
The timer properly stops the clock with .5 seconds remaining.
The ball is released.
The shot goes.

You can't penalize A1 because the timer failed to properly stop the clock. The shot counts and .5 seconds should be put back on the clock.

Are you going to tell Coach A that the clock should have stopped, so we're going to put .5 seconds back on the clock but we're not going to count the basket? If the clock should have stopped and we're putting time back on the clock, then the horn never sounded. The basket has to count.

That is the proper way to handle it.

I strongly disagree. No matter what, if the ball is not released before the horn goes off then I have no basket. I am not going to tell Coach B "because the whistle blew and the clock should have been stopped, player A1 has infinity to release the ball and the horn means nothing".

6-7 EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when:
3. A foul is committed by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

Just because the clock did not stop when it should have I am not going to afford him any more time to release the shot than he would have if the clock properly stopped. You are trying to say that A1 is fouled and it takes him more than 1.5 seconds to release a shot. I think this is a moot point because it most likely would have to occur with less than one second to go to be physically possible.

The horn was not supposed to sound. If you put time back on the clock, then you're saying that the horn didn't sound. It never happened. :(

Quote:

6-7 EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when: 3. A foul is committed by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

Time didn't expire if you put one second back on the clock.

If the clock properly stops, then he has until returns to the floor to release the shot. You are not affording "him any more time."

I'm not really addressing whether it's likely to happen or not. It is possible. If the clock isn't properly stopped, then you have to credit the basket. If you chose not to, all I can say is that it's your @ss, not mine.

Re: Quotes???
 

Like this! " " :D

Seriously, look at the bottom of the individual posting that you want to "quote". There is a small Icon with the creatively-chosen :D word "quote". Click it and it should become apparent what you need to do next.

Good luck!

Arrghhh! Devdog, I apologize for this, but the "grammar police" in me just had to come out on this. There is no such word as "irregardless." The word is "regardless."

I only mention this not to "put anyone down", because certainly, I make enought mistakes myself, but only because I have a ref buddy who intentionally says this word all the time just to bug me.

Feel free to correct my posts at any time. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Quote:

Arrghhh! Devdog, I apologize for this, but the "grammar police" in me just had to come out on this. There is no such word as "irregardless." The word is "regardless."

Mark, although "regardless" is considered traditional usage, several dictionaries have begun listing "irregardless" as an alternative usage (with the same definition), due to its common use in recent years. I don't personally like it, but it is unfortunately creeping into everyday language.

"regardless" = "irregardless". That's kind of like "iterate" = "reiterate". :)

Chuck

Let me tell you, those dictionaries make me want to puke on more than just people's shoes!

"Hey! Who woulda thought that flammable and inflammable mean the same thing?" - Dr. Nick Riviera

"Doesn't that mean the same thing? Like "flammable" and "inflammable"? Boy, I found that one out the hard way." -- Woody, from Cheers

devdog
Just cause you have to explain it to Coach B doesn't make it the wrong call. It was his player that committed the foul with 1.5 seconds left. I will admit that it's an awful kind of situation, but you must allow the basket by rule. To fail to do so takes away critical points from A with no rational or rulebook basis for doing so, except that it saves you an uncomfortable explanation. Know the rule, explain it with confidence, allow the basket, and shoot the FT. That's your job, it's why you put on the striped shirt.

You are entitled to your opinion which is all it is, as far as I'm concerned. I am not refusing to count this basket to save an explanation, it's because it should not count. You will not convince me to count a basket that is released after the horn sounds. The fact that the clock should have been properly stopped before the horn sounds, does not, IMO, change this. I do know the rule, and I am confident. I quoted the rule I am standing by, I didn't see yours. I really don't think it will ever happen, but if it does I will stand by my position, irregardless. :-)

I am only referring to the situation in which the referee has definite knowledge that the whistle went at 1.5 seconds left. By rule (case book - Mark Dexter has citation), the timer has a 1 second lag allowed, no more. With definite knowledge, the 1 second lag must be enforced to the tenth. So the horn may have sounded, but it by rule should not have sounded and .5 seconds are put back on the clock. If you restore the .5 seconds, which you must by rule with definite knowledge, then you must count the bucket, because by rule, the horn has not yet sounded. This is not opinion, this is NF rules.

To take another situation, if you have a whistle for a traveling violation with 1.5 seconds left and definite knowledge, but horn soundsanyway , you restore the clock to .5 seconds. This situation is no different. We have a made shot on a continuous motion and the game is not yet over. Count the bucket, shoot the free throw.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 11:12 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by devdog69

Quote:

I will stand by my position, irregardless. :-)

Now you did it on purpose that time!! You're just trying to make poor Mark's head explode. Shame on you. :D

Chuck

We are all familiar with the one second "lag time" concept, that is not the issue. I agree we put .5 seconds on the clock, shoot the free throw(s) and the game is not yet over. The second situation is not even close to the same, because it doesn't involve a shot that is released after the horn. The only thing that may alter my decision is if I was so in awe of a player who could be fouled yet stay in the air for more than 1.5 seconds before he release the ball on a shot, i.e., it is not going to happen. You keep saying "by rule", it is "NF rule", but no rule or casebook citing. I stand by my decision based on the comment on 10-6-3, last paragraph on page 63. Just to make you happy, though, I am forwarding this on to the higher ups in my state. I am sure they will be thrilled to hear from me, again.

I was looking at your original rule reference, which could not possibly apply if you put time on the clock. In your second post you cite 6-7 exception, which deals with the end of a period before ball is in flight. If you put time back on, the end of period did not occur, so that rule is not applicable. As for your citing the comment in 10-6 -3 summary of fouls and penalties, I am not clear how the ball became dead. Not because of end of period, time went back on clock. We are assuming continuous shooting motion, i.e., if this had happened and clock had stopped as it should, you would have counted the goal. So how is ball dead before try was complete?

yea, 10-6-3 was the reference for the illegal screen discussion, has no bearing on this discussion. The third exception to 6-7 is the rule I should have cited. That says ...provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. That happened, it shouldn't have, granted, but it did. This gives me definite knowledge and I won't count the basket.

Re: Re: Quotes???
 

Sometimes the obvious is oblivious to me (except during a basketball game).

If time expired, why is there time on the clock? If you put time on the clock, by definition, time has not expired. It is completely inconsistent and illogical to conclude that you have .5 seconds on the clock but time has expired. When time expires, the period is over and we don't play that period any more. I am sorry that I cannot find a rule that tells you this specifically, but it seems pretty clear that time expiring equals period over.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 01:39 PM]

Let's see, how hard could this really be.
1. Time expired, meaning the clock was allowed to run to 0.00 and the horn sounded. Fact.
2. Official correctly determines that clock should have been stopped at .5 seconds and puts time back on clock. Now there is time on the clock. It is absurd to say this is "completely inconsistent and illogical."
To recap, there was time on the clock, time expired incorrectly, the official put time back on the clock, now we have time on the clock.
You can't find a rule or case because there isn't one, maybe there should be.

Try reading it this way: "...providing time did not PROPERLY / LEGALLY expire before ..."

Or, try this:

Score: A 65, B 62. You blow the whistle with 1.5 left for a simple violation (OOB, say). The clock continues to run and the horn sounds. Coach A hears the horn and, umm, creatively expresses his disgust with the officiating effort. You correctly issue a T. Do you shoot the throws?

By your logic, I'd guess no -- the T occurred after time expired and the shots wouldn't affect the score. So now you're going to put time back on the clock (.5 seconds in FED) and continue the game??

I think you have to shoot the throws (regardless of the score) and continue the game. And, I think you need to count the basket in the original situation.

I think the rulemakers figured that by allowing for correction of timing mistakes, that it is obvious when you put time on the clock, time for that period has not expired. Time expiring deals only with the end of a period. If you are on the court with the clock showing .5 seconds left in the third period, time for the third period cannot have expired!

Suppose we put the .5 on the clock, A1 misses free throw and A2 taps ball before 3rd period horn sounds (for second time!). Basket doesn't count in your rulebook, because time for the third period already expired when we heard the erroneous horn. That is the absurd extension of your conclusion that time has expired, but time is on the clock.

Time for a period can only expire once. Nothing can happen other than one or more free throws with lane cleared, <b>and with zero seconds on clock</b>, after time expires for a period.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree because I am still not going to count the freakin shot and I hope I get a coach like you, cuz then we're going to get lots of shots to shoot.

Totally different situations you guys keep throwing out. What makes you dream up that I wouldn't shoot shots on a T, or ignore a violation? My logic is simply this: By the horn going off, I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that A1 would not/did not release the ball before the horn. Therefore, I am going to wave the shot, give him two shots, put .5 seconds back on the clock. Don't start putting words in my mouth or saying, if this or if that happened. It didn't: this supposedly happened, though, it will never, ever happen in an actual game without divine intervention.

Must have hit "quote" instead of "edit/delete" didn't know you could double post on this board.[Edited by devdog69 on Jan 8th, 2002 at 02:31 PM]

Devon, the horn sounded in error. It wasn't supposed to sound. It should not have sounded. Understand? Therefore, if the horn sounded in error, the horn never sounded. You have to count the basket. There's no way to make it any simplier than that.

BTW, have you noticed that no one is agreeing with you. That alone should tell you that you're wrong.

What are you going to be shooting for - I confine my arguing with refs to this board. If you don't know the rules and totally blow it (not on judgment, but on agreed upon facts and misapplication of rules), I'll raise it with you, if you're stubborn and wrong, I'll raise it with the appropriate authorities after the game.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 03:18 PM]

Count the basket!!! Time didn't expire. The clock said it did only because the clock keeper failed to stop it properly. The horn was erroneous so it is ignored.