Red (home)#10 reports and enters game half way through the second period. In the official book as well as the visitor's book, they have her as #31. Both books make the change by erasing #31 and writing in #10 but without notifying the officials. We finish the first half and during halftime the visiting scorekeeper tells the visiting coach about the change. As we are about to begin the second half, the visiting coach informs us about the change. Is it too late to assess a T for the red team?

Yes, it is too late. This must be discovered and penalized when the infraction occurs. When the ball becomes live, it is too late. See 10.1.2.

Gotcha. Back to the game: When the visiting coach informs us of the change in the book (just at the end of halftime) we confer with the official (home)scorekeeper who verifies that yes she did change the players number when she entered in the second period. We asked her if anything like this had ever happened to her while keeping score and she replied that yes it had and a technical foul was called on her team. So we issue the T! Comments on how it was handled?

Comment #1 - never officiate games based on previous ones. If a girl has earrings, and she (truthfully) says "Last night's ref let me keep them in," are you going to let her keep the earrings?

Comment #2 - You had the ultimate Catch-22 of a scorer - he/she knew it was a technical, but was unaware of the "statute of limitations."

Comment #3 - If the scorers agree to "take care of it themselves" (i.e., not wanting a stupid technical foul), they should keep it to themselves.

Comment #4 - Remind the visiting book that they are an official, too, and that they should not feel "bullied" by the home scorer into saying nothing (may not have happened here, but . . .). The visiting scorer has as much right to get the floor officials' attention as the home team.

Well put Mark

I've spent so many years on clock/book that managing those is easy for me during games.

Now if I can only perfect the other nine rules . . .

Just to expound on why it was wrong to call the T:

The T must be called when the change is made in the book.
If the change is made and the scorer does not notify you prior to the ball becoming live, then it's too late.
If the player enters and the book is not changed, You can charge the T when you are notified, even though she's alreay in the game.
Finally, you can only call one T based on this rule in a game.
Any further scorebook errors are a free ride for #31's team.

Wait a minute guys.
 

Is it a T because the scorer on their own changed it, or is it a T because the information is incorrect? And what if none of the players played in the game with the incorrect numbers? Do we still give Ts out for wrong numbers and wrong names if none of the players in question do not play?

Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

The T is for changing the book to match the player or the player to match the book. If Jonny is listed as 14, but is wearing 32, and never goes in the game, we have nothing.

Re: Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

Well, Are you going to give a T if the scorer did it on their own, or are you going to give a T just when the one of the coaches tell the scorer or does it themselves?

And I guess this is an even better question. Do your require the information to be written in the book by the 10 minute mark or can the information be on a piece of paper at the table?

Peace

Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

There is no T. To have a T, the officials must be notified that a number is incorrect and needs to be changed. In this case, the scorer changed it and didn't notify the official. Once the change is made and the ball becomes live, we can't call a T.

Information in book by 10 min mark...
 

It is my understanding that the information MUST be entered into the OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK before the ten minuet mark or a technical is assesed.

Re: Information in book by 10 min mark...
 

Incorrect. The rule says nothing about being entered. It says that the names and numbers must be summited or designate the starters. It says nothing about having to be written in at all. So in really you could have the names on a piece of paper given to the scorer. Rule 3-2-1.

Think about it, what if the scorer does not write the names in before 10 minutes and all the information is in front of them? I do not think the intent of the rule is to give the visiting team a T for the behavior of someone associated with the home team. Or better yet, what if the scorer is out getting something from the concession stand and is no where to be found? You are not going to give a T then either I hope?

Just something to think about.

In reply to the second question jrut posed - is it a T because scorer changed it themselves, or only if coach notified them to change it? In reality, neither. It is a T when player reports with wrong number, as long as ref knows it. If scorer says nothing and chooses to change it, or if scorer is asked to change it and does so without notifying refs, not gonna have a T. It takes a good bench person on opposing bench to catch a sub with wrong number, and say something before ball is live in this situation, and then you would still have a T.

Re: Re: Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

The only requirement is that the scorer be provided with this information by the time that 10:00 shows on the clock. This way, the visiting team is not penalized if the home coach is taking a long time to fill in his half of the official book and finishes at 10:01 to go.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

Our clocks count down out here in the sticks. 10:01 would be before 10:00. Mark D, you also said in #4 above "remind the visitor book that they are an official too" and that the visiting scorer has as much right to get the officials attention as the home team. You are going to have to prove that to me. I have an official timer and an official scorer, not a home scorer and a vistiing scorer. Whatever my official scorer says and is in their book is the only account of the game. If there is a question that the visiting scorer raises I will ask the official book, if they disagree the official scorebook stands.

Re: Information in book by 10 min mark...
 

Now, we're talking about two different rules.

10-1-1
Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

This is what you're talking about, sohl. We're talking about 10-1-2c.

10-1-2
After the time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

After the 10 minute mark, you can only have one technical foul under 10-1-2 for the remainder of the game.

That's not true either, Coach. It's a T when the change is made in the book, if the official is notified properly. The player doesn't even have to report. If the coach came to the table and said, "We need to make a change in the book. Jane is #11, not #10." The scoroer notifies the official prior to making the change. Now we have a T.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wait a minute guys.
 

That was the point. If home coach is done with the book at 10:01 left, there would be no way for the visiting coach to get everything entered before the 10-minute "T" mark.


2-1-1: "The officials shall be a referee and an umpire . . . who shall be assisted by two timers and two scorers."

2-11: The scorers (note the plural form here) shall . . .

I agree - if they disagree, you have to go with the official book. However, the visiting scorer is allowed to, and should, call things to the officials' attention.

2-1-1 also says "A single timer and a single scorer may be used if they are trained personnel acceptable to the referee."

This is most often the case in high school games, but I agree in the lower levels having two could be beneficial. I would want the visiting book at the table with the other scorers and timers if I was going to consider it an official part of the game.

Pregame Comments to official scorer and visiting scorer which can be helpful:

"You can sit by each other if you like - that makes it easy to stay in sync. If there are any problems, the <b> official </b> (NOTE: Not the visiting scorer!) scorer can get our attention at the first dead ball. Good communication between the two of you would be very helpful. If there are discrepancies, this <i>(pointing to official scorer book)</i> will be what we go by unless the refs have definite knowlege of an error."

Z

Re: Re: Information in book by 10 min mark...
 

As a coach, I keep a number of "starter sheets" in my game folder. Each has the players, positions (in case there is an announcer), and numbers. There are blanks at the top to indicate the game and date, and there is a column of checkboxes to indicate which players are starters. I have have that day's sheet already filled out, and I set it on the scorer's table when my team enters the gym to warm up. According to my read of the rules (and JRutledge's), this is perfectly legal. If the scorer prefers, I will write the names into the official book as well, but this way I have always provided them in the proper time frame.

Re: Re: Re: Information in book by 10 min mark...
 

Coach; thank you!

Now why couldn't you be at one of my games?