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-   -   Partner's late...How do you cover the court? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36237-partners-late-how-do-you-cover-court.html)

NURef Wed Jul 04, 2007 09:49am

Partner's late...How do you cover the court?
 
Well, it finally happened and they said it would, my partner did not show for a varsity game last night until half time. It must have been 90 degrees in that gym and I was running around like a chicken with its head cut-off. I had a friend in the stands who said I did a great job considering the situation...also stated it looked pretty funny at times...as I'm sure you're finding humor right now in visualizing this rookie running around a gym.

I was moving to the weakside to get a wider perspective and then flowing down to the baseline as the ball was rotated closer to the basket. Should I have stayed up top more and forget going baseline? I stayed mid-court during press situations and baseline on free throws.

My partner offered up tons of apologies for being late but no suggestions. Can anyone offer up a logical way of officiating a game when this occurs? Again, sorry if this has already been discussed.

Thanks

Note: Coaches, Players & Fans were great during this situation...even though this was a big rival game.

bob jenkins Wed Jul 04, 2007 09:58am

There's no one standard for one-person mechanics.

Some work table-side; some work opposite; a few work the center of the court.

Most work FT line-to-FT line; some try to get to the baseline periodically.

Since you'll be missing more off-ball stuff, be more aggressive on the stuff you see (you might pass on a marginal illegal screen in two-person; you might call it in one-person).

sj Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:30am

Most likely no matter where you work from a big trouble spot will be baseline-opposite from where you are. In other words you're table side and Mr. Driveittothebasketeverytime is in the opposite corner and he goes baseline. You end up having to look through about 6 players to see. Just do the best you can to get into position to see it. It may be going low or it maybe moving out towards the middle.

SmokeEater Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
There's no one standard for one-person mechanics.

Some work table-side; some work opposite; a few work the center of the court.

Most work FT line-to-FT line; some try to get to the baseline periodically.

Since you'll be missing more off-ball stuff, be more aggressive on the stuff you see (you might pass on a marginal illegal screen in two-person; you might call it in one-person).

This is great advice. I would add that it takes a great deal more concentration and if you get the chance to close down a bit on a play then that helps sell your calls or no-call. I have a tendency to work both sides of the floor depending on where the ball ends up when an offence is run. I typically will try to stay on the opposite side from the table and go to them for help on their sideline if necessary (only for OOB calls).

Mark Padgett Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:13pm

I have worked literally over a hundred rec games by myself. I always work FT line to FT line and alternate sides. I do try to spend about 2/3 of the time opposite table side just to stay away from the coaches. :)

Administer free throws from the trail position and most of the time you can stand away from an inbounder and bounce the ball to him or her to inbound.

Don't ever be uncertain about an OOB call. Remember the referee's motto: "Occasionally wrong - but never indecisive". ;)

JRutledge Wed Jul 04, 2007 01:49pm

I roam all over the place. I just want to get in place to call what ever I can. It also helps when a coach tries to say I am out of position. I am also in shape to move around. I used to subscribe to the FT line to FT line mechanic, but that did not work in my mind. As Bob says you really have to find your own way and philosophy. I happened to work a summer league where I worked multiple games by myself and I just found what worked for me.

Peace

Old School Wed Jul 04, 2007 02:37pm

You can not roam all over the place. You will be out of position more often then not. Being at the FT line might at times be too close and prevent you from getting to the other side of the court should the ball swing over. You should be opposite the table and work where you can see everything.

At the jump, I explain to the players and coaches, it's on your honor system on the baseline if the ball goes out. If you can not work it out, it will be a jump ball. For example, ball goes out on the baseline opposite from where I'm standing, if the teams can't agree and I'm not sure, jump ball.

I use to try and go down to the baseline if the ball worked it's way down there. What made me stop was that I found myself over time refereeing the baseline for one team and not the other because no way I was going to go baseline to baseline. It turned out to be more baseline one team, trail the other. Not fair to me so I try to stay center. I could cover more here and even caught an intentional foul late in the game.

I have always worked my trail position towards center court because I had a great look at the ball and everything else. Plus, my Lead would often not pick up the ball in 2-person when it was deep in his corner. The area between the FT line semi-cirlce and half-court is where you start, preferrabily opposite table. If you need to go in from here, you can but don't go down too far. If the ball swings from one side to the other, you can easily go from one side to the other and then in.

JRutledge Wed Jul 04, 2007 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
You can not roam all over the place. You will be out of position more often then not. Being at the FT line might at times be too close and prevent you from getting to the other side of the court should the ball swing over. You should be opposite the table and work where you can see everything.

Here is the thing cappy. I will do whatever the hell I want to do. I am the only person on the game. If I am the only person on the game, I am out of position all the time for something. If I stay table side I will not see plays opposite table. If I state above the FT line I can easily miss things on the baseline. No matter where I stand or move to, I will not see something. If they wanted a set mechanic, they would create one. There are no mechanics in any book as to where to stand. There is only personal opinion and often those opinions are based on what someone else shared with them. No games during the regular season are assigned with one official on purpose.

Peace

SmokeEater Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:14pm

JRut, I know there was direct reference to your post but try not to let those comments get to you. I think everyone can see the opinion of the majority is the same as the one you originally stated.

It has been nice the past week or so without any posts from JMO.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater
It has been nice the past week or so without any posts from JMO.

A little slice of heaven......:)

JRutledge Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater
JRut, I know there was direct reference to your post but try not to let those comments get to you. I think everyone can see the opinion of the majority is the same as the one you originally stated.

It has been nice the past week or so without any posts from JMO.

Who said the comments got to me? I just wanted to state that anyone can do anything at anytime when you are working by yourself. I know his history and I normally ignore his posts as I did in another thread today. You can do whatever you want if it works for you. And I dare anyone show evidence otherwise. ;)

Peace

refnrev Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:36pm

Unlike Jeff, I don't roam much, in fact I'm pretty deliberate to stay in the trail. I do ususally go down to administer free throws. I, too try to stay opposite the table even though I have told the coaches that we're not working under ideal circumstances, to stay in their boxes, and I'll have less tolerance than ususal. Baseline OOBs are tricky, but be deliberate. They may know you missed it but they usually are pretty understanding. When you're flying solo you just have to get it done the best that you can.

rbruno Wed Jul 04, 2007 03:40pm

Table side works for me
 
I've done many games by myself and i agree, don't run baseline to baseline cause you will not see anything and will be really tired and almost always out of position. I always tell the coaches before the game that I can't see everything and I may even ask for help from the players on the opposite sideline.
I tend to go free throw line to free throw line tableside. I figure even thought I am closer to the coaches on that side, that they can't see the opposite sideline any better than I can! Please don't listen (not that you ever should) to 3 second chants .... you have the ball and that's all..... thats why they have 2 or 3 referees.

Scrapper1 Wed Jul 04, 2007 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Here is the thing cappy. I will do whatever the hell I want to do.

This is my favorite post in a long, long time!!! :D

26 Year Gap Wed Jul 04, 2007 06:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
This is my favorite post in a long, long time!!! :D


Yup. I think JMO has got himself an official nickname.

Mark Dexter Wed Jul 04, 2007 07:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbruno
Please don't listen (not that you ever should) to 3 second chants .... you have the ball and that's all..... thats why they have 2 or 3 referees.

Yup.

As much as I can't stand coaches counting "three . . . four . . . five," I tolerate even less of it (that is - none at all) when I'm working a game by myself.

Mark Padgett Wed Jul 04, 2007 08:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
As much as I can't stand coaches counting "three . . . four . . . five,"

"Coach - you made me lose count. Now I have to start over." ;)

JugglingReferee Wed Jul 04, 2007 09:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
"Coach - you made me lose count. Now I have to start over." ;)

My friend uses the same approach in a football game when coaches are yelling that a delay of game flag should be thrown. :D He has clever retorts at times.

JugglingReferee Wed Jul 04, 2007 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Yup.

As much as I can't stand coaches counting "three . . . four . . . five," I tolerate even less of it (that is - none at all) when I'm working a game by myself.

There was a post here at OF.com years ago about a woman who would always yell for 3 in the key.

It turned out that she thought the offense couldn't have 3 or more players in the (frontcourt) key at any given time.

bronco Thu Jul 05, 2007 03:22am

As a coach, I've had refs tell both coaches that they would stay opposite table, and might need help from the coaches on OOB tableside. It is similar to what was said about asking the table, but in a lot of summer league games, the table is parents from either school. Wanting parents to help may be even worse that wanting coaches to help. Also, when this has been done, the ref would say that if there is any disagreement then it would go to the alternating posession arrow.

Old School Thu Jul 05, 2007 08:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Here is the thing cappy. I will do whatever the hell I want to do. I am the only person on the game. If I am the only person on the game, I am out of position all the time for something. If I stay table side I will not see plays opposite table. If I state above the FT line I can easily miss things on the baseline. No matter where I stand or move to, I will not see something. If they wanted a set mechanic, they would create one. There are no mechanics in any book as to where to stand. There is only personal opinion and often those opinions are based on what someone else shared with them. No games during the regular season are assigned with one official on purpose.

I'm not saying there is a set mechanic but if you should happen to be in a situation like this. It is helpful to understand and learn from people who have experienced it. You can try to go anywhere you want but you will more often then not be out of position for an obvious violation. Staying back with the widest angle view is the best, working in from here when the play allows you too. I say this from expereinced, trial and error. I'm just sharing. Don't shoot the messenger.

Boiler14 Thu Jul 05, 2007 08:18am

Great question. I had to work 15 games the past two weekends by myself. This is the first time I went in knowing I was going to be by myself.

I did a lot of staying opposite the bench but migrated to the middle of the floor when the ball swung weakside. Sometimes I felt like an umpire in football when we went the other way rather quickly. I always made sure I had the whistle out of my mouth as the players were going by.

I administered the FT like the old days from the trial. Really seems silly now that it used to take two of us to administer a FT.

I asked for the honor system from the players on difficult OOB decision. Like in a two or three man system, many times you can tell by the way the players react whose ball it is.

This was a team camp so I was working multiple games. If the ball was to be inbounded in the backcourt and there was no press I didn't even ask for the ball. If there was subbing going on I just put my palm out like a traffic cop and the players waited. The main reason for doing this is that we were using a running clock so I really didn't mind saving a few steps and giving them the time to play.

After having worked the one man system now I really do think you have to find what you are comfortable with. If you are working many games like I did you really, really, can't let your mind wander. That was the biggest challenge as the games went along.

NURef Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:06am

I really appreciate the recommendations...

I was thinking the last few minutes of the half that night that I need to work opposite table and stay above the FT but it was sort of like "I've fallen and I can't get up".

I really liked the idea of a pre-game and asking the players to help via the honor system on opposite baseline OOB...calling jump ball if it can't be resolved.

The bottom line, as many stated, is there are no published mechanics for a one official game so you've got to do what's comfortable and what I did was not comfortable...live and learn.

Thanks!

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
I'm not saying there is a set mechanic but if you should happen to be in a situation like this. It is helpful to understand and learn from people who have experienced it. You can try to go anywhere you want but you will more often then not be out of position for an obvious violation. Staying back with the widest angle view is the best, working in from here when the play allows you too. I say this from expereinced, trial and error. I'm just sharing. Don't shoot the messenger.

I have experienced it, Cappy, duuuhhhhhhhhaaaaaa. I have worked by myself several times where a partner has not shown up or is very late. I have also done this several times in real games which you likely know nothing about. There is not "best angle." You are by yourself and you cannot see the out of bounds lines you cannot see off ball plays.

Peace

Scrapper1 Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I have experienced it, Cappy, duuuhhhhhhhhaaaaaa.

Just trying to help. :D

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Just trying to help. :D

I forgot to include that. I will remember next time.

Peace

SmokeEater Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:28am

Good thing Cappies posts don't get to ya! I'd hate to see ya really upset with someone. After all your always so pleasant with everyone.:p

Old School Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I have experienced it, Cappy, duuuhhhhhhhhaaaaaa. I have worked by myself several times where a partner has not shown up or is very late. I have also done this several times in real games which you likely know nothing about. There is not "best angle." You are by yourself and you cannot see the out of bounds lines you cannot see off ball plays.

The objective is to get the obvious. You go running around trying to get the best angle on every play and guaranteed, you will miss the obvious. I don't know who cappy is but I do know what I know. If it can help someone than great, if not, then throw it away and ignore it. When by yourself, the widest angle is the best angle.

A wise man once said, best to cover 90% of what you can see and not worry about the 10% that you can not, then to try and cover the 10% and miss 90% of what's happening on the floor.

Have a nice day...

Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
You go running around trying to get the best angle on every play and guaranteed, you will miss the obvious.

That statement is illogical to the point of stupidity.

M&M Guy Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
A wise man once said, best to cover 90% of what you can see and not worry about the 10% that you can not, then to try and cover the 10% and miss 90% of what's happening on the floor.

Which wise man said that?

bob jenkins Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Old School
A wise man once said, best to cover 90% of what you can see and not worry about the 10% that you can not, then to try and cover the 10% and miss 90% of what's happening on the floor.
Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Which wise man said that?


Harold Weisman, a near-sighted carpet salesman.

M&M Guy Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Harold Weisman, a near-sighted carpet salesman.

That answer just floors me.

I'm not sure if you're just trying to pile on, or if you're just trying to pad your resume.

Either way, I think you've just about covered it.

Old School Thu Jul 05, 2007 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Which wise man said that?

The man that wrote it! Fear not as he does not want your job.

M&M Guy Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
The man that wrote it!

Are you saying you are the wise man, because you wrote it in that particular post?

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
That statement is illogical to the point of stupidity.

That statement was kind of stupid. Cappy just keeps surpassing himself every time he posts.

Peace

Tom M. Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:20pm

Mr JRut. Wow, are you ever wrong? You post daily, and post after post it is always seems to be your way or the highway. A little humility would be nice once in a while.

Old School Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Are you saying you are the wise man, because you wrote it in that particular post?

A wise man once said, be not too concerned with who said it, as to what is being said.

Adam Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:27pm

I'd ask your wise man for your money back, if I were you.

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom M.
Mr JRut. Wow, are you ever wrong? You post daily, and post after post it is always seems to be your way or the highway. A little humility would be nice once in a while.

What does humility have to do with giving an opinion? Just like I would never do what most say on this board about this subject, I can guarantee you there are people that will never do what I suggest either. And that is the reason some people get to certain places and others are still wondering why they are being held back. We all have choices to make that those choices have consequences.

If you do not like the opinions that I or anyone else gives, do not follow the damn advice or point of view. I just came back from a camp in Kentucky and I can tell you everything that I heard over the 3 days I would not do. I paid $560 for that advice and instruction (plus air fare with a cancelled flight and waiting hours on standby, and a rental car). This place is free and no one is going to assign you a thing based on what you say here. If you do not like the words that I have to say, do not use them. I personally do not give a rat's ***. I am not going to win an extra prize if you ignore what I have to say.

Peace

M&M Guy Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
A wise man once said, be not too concerned with who said it, as to what is being said.

Which wise man said that? Please be a little more specific in your next answer.

Actually, who said it lends a great deal of credibilty to what is being said. The impression here is that when you use the term "a wise man once said...", you are trying to elevate the level of your opinion by adding the wise man characterization. This actually proves my point, because if you have a valid point, it should be able to stand on its own, (<B>what</B> is being said), rather than trying to increase credibility by adding the part about the wise man (<B>who</B> said it).

So, if you have an opinion that is valid, simply state your opinion without adding who said it. If you are trying to supplement your opinion with someone else's statement (to obviously add credibility to your opinion), then give credit to the person making that statement.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 05, 2007 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
What does humility have to do with giving an opinion? Just like I would never do what most say on this board about this subject, I can guarantee you there are people that will never do what I suggest either. And that is the reason some people get to certain places and others are still wondering why they are being held back. We all have choices to make that those choices have consequences.

If you do not like the opinions that I or anyone else gives, do not follow the damn advice or point of view. If you do not like the words that I have to say, do not use them. I personally do not give a rat's ***. I am not going to win an extra prize if you ignore what I have to say.

I told you that grumpiness comes with experience. :D

Just an observation, fwiw, before I get the popcorn out.:) Most top officials that I have met have a few things in common. They are usually type A personalities who are very, very confident in their own abilities. They might act humble, but believe me, when it comes to their opinion of their own officiating ability, they aren't. Sometimes that self-confidence can be confused with arrogance. There's a big difference.

Was it Padgett that posted something like "Sometimes wrong but never uncertain"? That's usually the mark of a good official imo.

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2007 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I told you that grumpiness comes with experience. :D

I do not know about the grumpiness part. I am not quite there. When I start talking about what happen in the 20th century that might be the case then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Just an observation, fwiw, before I get the popcorn out.:) Most top officials that I have met have a few things in common. They are usually type A personalities who are very, very confident in their own abilities. They might act humble, but believe me, when it comes to their opinion of their own officiating ability, they aren't. Sometimes that self-confidence can be confused with arrogance. There's a big difference.

I completely agree. When you are a veteran you have done something over and over and over again and you know it works (for you at least).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Was it Padgett that posted something like "Sometimes wrong but never uncertain"? That's usually the mark of a good official imo.

I am not sure I fully understand the statement, but I think I get the point. :D

Peace

Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 05, 2007 03:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
When you are a veteran you have done something over and over and over again and you know it works <font color = red>(for you at least).</font>

That's a good point too. What works well for one official will not necessarily work well for <b>all</b> officials. By trial, error and experience, you usually figure out what works best for you and your personality.

A wise man once said "Just because you take different paths doesn't mean that you won't end up at the same destination."

That wise man wasn't Cappy btw.....:D

Old School Thu Jul 05, 2007 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Which wise man said that? Please be a little more specific in your next answer.

Actually, who said it lends a great deal of credibilty to what is being said. The impression here is that when you use the term "a wise man once said...", you are trying to elevate the level of your opinion by adding the wise man characterization. This actually proves my point, because if you have a valid point, it should be able to stand on its own, (<B>what</B> is being said), rather than trying to increase credibility by adding the part about the wise man (<B>who</B> said it).

So, if you have an opinion that is valid, simply state your opinion without adding who said it. If you are trying to supplement your opinion with someone else's statement (to obviously add credibility to your opinion), then give credit to the person making that statement.

Too much information!

Please do not over analyze the wise man. He is not on trial here and he does not want your job, so relax and call off the dogs.

M&M Guy Thu Jul 05, 2007 03:51pm

Huh?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
Please do not over analyze the wise man.

Actually, I'm not analizing the wise man, I'm trying to analyze <B>you</B> and your statements. Or are you saying you are the wise man?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
He is not on trial here

Well, if you are the wise man you are referring to, then yes, you/he are on trial for your comments. If you are not the wise man you refer to in your comments, then I agree, he is not on trial here.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
and he does not want your job

What job is that? Have you talked to him recently regarding his employment prospects?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
so relax and call off the dogs.

I am relaxed. I also don't own any dogs; my wife and kids have a cat that has trouble attacking anything.

Mark Dexter Thu Jul 05, 2007 07:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
"Coach - you made me lose count. Now I have to start over." ;)

The response is something more along the lines of sounding my whistle and signaling the letter T.

Mark Padgett Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Was it Padgett that posted something like "Sometimes wrong but never uncertain"? That's usually the mark of a good official imo.

My actual quote is "Occasionally wrong but never indecisive." ;)

NURef Fri Jul 06, 2007 08:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
My actual quote is "Occasionally wrong but never indecisive." ;)

I like that quote...it's my biggest challenge right now. Along with game management and a whole host of things. Hopefully "This too shall pass".

Thanks


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