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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
To me, this mechanic is more useful to the players on the court. Both the defender and ball handler can see whether or not the count is on without explicitly looking at the official.
Oh, my !

To me, if the ball handler is actually being closely-guarded, that player will be a bit busy to worry about whether the ref is counting or not, ... no matter which hand the ref is using.
As the defender, I don't care what the ref is doing. The other guy has *my ball* and I want it back.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Oh, my !

To me, if the ball handler is actually being closely-guarded, that player will be a bit busy to worry about whether the ref is counting or not, ... no matter which hand the ref is using.
As the defender, I don't care what the ref is doing. The other guy has *my ball* and I want it back.
Good ball players are well aware of the count. As a ref, you've never had a player look your direction to see if you had a count?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:20pm
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
Interesting. What about trying to maintain consistency between officials' signals on the court? Do you believe that all officials should have the flexibility to put aside or add signals according to their opinion?
This happens all the time !
Practical signals get added because officials are using them.
Silly mechanics get dropped because officials refuse to use them.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
Good ball players are well aware of the count. As a ref, you've never had a player look your direction to see if you had a count?
Correct.
Never.
Who's he guarding if he's lookin' at me?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
I thought we already had something that communicated this. A five second count if they are, none if they aren't.

Rita
The none if they aren't is the problem. In HS and NCAA Men's, coaches teach playing defense and the referee's must officiate it. In NCAA Women and the NBA, there is no such thing as a closely guarded count on the dribbler. IMHO, I believe this hurts the NCAA Women's game not having it but I guess it was being called too much that led them to dismiss it.

I have had coaches come apart at the seams expecting this call. Sometimes so bad I had to ignore them to keep from giving them the T. If I used the spread-arm mechanic, I was accused of using college mechanics in a HS game. The athleticism of the players has reached the college level now in HS. Ironically, in my college games, I seldom have to use it because they swing the ball so fast and the shot clock makes them shoot. Not so in HS.

Remember, closely guarded is measure at the feet and not the arms. Good mechanic to help manage the coaches.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Oh, my !

To me, if the ball handler is actually being closely-guarded, that player will be a bit busy to worry about whether the ref is counting or not, ... no matter which hand the ref is using.
As the defender, I don't care what the ref is doing. The other guy has *my ball* and I want it back.
I see your point, but it is usually the coach behind the official that is yelling for this. Several times this summer alone the coach is yelling to the ball handler about whether I have a count or not which he is telling his player to move or pass the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
When the NCAA/CAA added this signal a number of years ago, I thought it was the dumbest, stupidest, most idiotic signal that was ever adopted. I have never used it in a college game or an AAU girls' game because if I am not counting, it means that there is no closing guarded situation. AND, I do not plan to ever use it in a H.S. game or any game using NFHS rules.
Mark, if you do not like the mechanic, do not use the mechanic. I do not think anyone is going to be upset with you. The mechanic is just another way to communicate a situation. Just not counting does not always communicate why you are not counting.

We really are making this harder than it needs to be.

Peace
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
We really are making this harder than it needs to be.
Agree. It can't hurt. It might help. It ain't no biggie.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 03:15pm
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NFHS Citation Please

From Billy MaC: "Team members are not allowed to congregate at midcourt during introductions."

From BktBllRef: "No different from the FED, although many don't enforce it."

BktBallRef: NFHS citation please. Thanks.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 04, 2007, 03:26pm
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I'm glad it's here. It's a useful tool for communication. I used it from time to time before... not all of the time by any means, but it lets a coach who wants the closely guarded know that you aren't day dreaming or not paying attention. It communicates that you see exactly what is going on and you're making a judgement. It also can send a message to the coach to get his defenders closer to the ball handler if he wants the count. Have I ever had a player look over at me as was asked before? Never, nor I do I expect to have this happen. It would be poor judgement on the part of either the defender or ball handler.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 05, 2007, 10:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The state that Bob and I belong to have their own procedures as to how to deal with players near the center area during pre-game introductions and the coaching box enforcement. The home team is allowed the center court area during pre-game introductions and if a team has a special celebration like a school called the Quincy High School Blue Devils, a school can get a waiver from the IHSA to allow a waiver from the normal rule.

Also the coaching box was a major issue a couple of years ago. The IHSA wanted us to enforce rule very strictly and to give Ts to help enforce the strict rule. Well they have now back off a little but still have a heavy emphasis to coaching staying completely in the box.

BTW, here is an example of a pre-game celebration. I was actually working this game but this school got a waiver to use this introduction from the IHSA. According to NF rules this would be outlawed.

Quincy High School Pre-Game introduction

Peace
That'll get 'em fired up I wonder if they installed fireproof nets?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 05, 2007, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
This happens all the time !
Practical signals get added because officials are using them.
Silly mechanics get dropped because officials refuse to use them.
This is true.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 05, 2007, 12:02pm
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That's why I asked

To be honest, I haven't really had many coaches say anything about closely guarded. I haven't felt the need for the mechanic. Of course, as of yet, I've done few varsity games. That may be the difference.

Soooo, I guess I'll give it a try. One more signal to worry about using.

Rita
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 05, 2007, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
To be honest, I haven't really had many coaches say anything about closely guarded.
You are lucky

Quote:
I haven't felt the need for the mechanic. Of course, as of yet, I've done few varsity games. That may be the difference. Soooo, I guess I'll give it a try. One more signal to worry about using. Rita
I defiantly would not worry about using this mechanic or go out my way to use it. Just know that it's there to help communicate what you are judging, if you need it. Sort of like the bird dog signal. You don't have to bird dog but at times, it helps to communicate your judgement. Communication (as the wise man once said) is the key to successful officiating.

Have a nice day
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 05, 2007, 02:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
To be honest, I haven't really had many coaches say anything about closely guarded. I haven't felt the need for the mechanic. Of course, as of yet, I've done few varsity games. That may be the difference.

Soooo, I guess I'll give it a try. One more signal to worry about using.

Rita
Coaches at the varsity level do tend to complain more about the closely guarded issue. That is because they are more knowledgeable about the game. JV and lower level coaches are more concerned about 3 seconds and why his or her player was not awarded a foul call for dribbling through all 5 people. Do not worry about it.

Peace
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 06, 2007, 10:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Coaches at the varsity level do tend to complain more about the closely guarded issue. That is because they are more knowledgeable about the game. JV and lower level coaches are more concerned about 3 seconds and why his or her player was not awarded a foul call for dribbling through all 5 people. Do not worry about it.

Peace
I don't worry about it as a coach...if I see them counting at any given time, I know they are paying attention.

Now, about getting the lead to do a visual "3 second count".....
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