Not sure if I messed this up or not, here goes, but gotta hurry got a tourney to go to.

JV girls game, close game early. In third quarter B goes on a run and pulls out to a 10 pt lead, B1 gets fouled and makes the shot. A calls a full timeout before the free throw, I am lead, two man with very mechanically weak partner, but I have worked with him before and have learned to just do everything and it will work out. First horn, I step in and say first horn, B comes out but A is still on the bench and coach is not making any moves. I said come on coach get em out. Now in anticipating the second horn and B waiting at the lane, I said to them "get in your spots ladies if they don't come we're going without them". Sure enough, second horn, still not a hint of movement off the bench from A, so I give the thrower the ball, via the bounce pass. She bounces it a couple of times and just as she is in her shooting motion, three A players come flying through the lane to get into position. I've got the delayed violation signal, but somehow the ball bounced around the rim and went in. I've got nothing, of course, and some idiot in the stands going nuts wanting a lane violation, duh.

Now the real story. Fourth quarter, nearly identical situation on the other end. B fouled shooting, basket didn't go, A calls full time-out, six point lead for A. Same type of thing, B comes out gets lined up and A is not moving at all. So at the second horn, I gave them one last look and they are just now piling hands up, so I bounce the ball to B. Alert A coach gets his players stopped behind the three point arc. B shoots and misses, I whistle "lane violation A, two shots. A coach goes wild, actually was at the table requesting a time-out for a correctable error, so I start over there to give him my explanation (though I didn't call or charge him with a timeout because no one else realized that's what he was doing). I first had to say "coach, let's get back to the box and I'll talk to you", as he was about 6 feet on the other side of halfcourt. Then he tells me "you can't even give the ball to the free thrower because we have to be in the lower spots", I said "exactly coach, that's why I had a lane violation". I told him "if you don't come out of the huddle after a timeout, I use the resuming play procedure, which means giving the ball to the free thrower". I could see he wasn't listening so after about 30 seconds I said "coach, we disagree, but I'll be happy to get with you later and show you the rule", turned and walked away. I get about 10 feet away and he screams "but, you're wrong". I resisted and went on about the rest of the game, being sure to call it the same after as I did before and not let any of this affect my game. After the game, he came to me, shook my hand and said "very good game". I felt he was sincere and I once again explained to him that the resuming play procedure was used instead of a technical foul and he agreed that I was right. I must have explained it a little better there because it made more sense even to me. Now, was I right?

Assuming the "timing" of putting the ball in play was consistent with how it is called in your area (ased on your description, we probably would have waited for A in the second situation), then you were correct.

:confused: Why would B be shooting at different ends in the 3rd and 4th quarters?

I had virtually this exact same situation last week. My partner and I handled it exactly as you did althought both of us were a little unsure if we did it right. Here's what happened:
Tie game, 2 minutes to go. A1 commits a foul under the basket away from the ball. B1 gets to shoot a 1-and-1, however this is A1's fifth foul. Partner reports foul to table and then notifies coach of A1's disqualification. Coach of A calls his players to the sideline for a quick huddle before sending in a sub. Coach B thinks there is a timeout so his players go to the sideline. Coach A then sends in his sub before the 30 sec. time limit. But continues to huddle with his players. As soon as the sub is beckoned in my partner and I take our places for the free throw. No players are coming onto the court so I blow my whistle and loudly say "there is no timeout, let's play ball. Now the shooter comes to the FT line, but no one else from either team. I patiently waited about 5 more seconds and still no one else comes onto the court. So I bounce the ball to the free thrower. Both my partner and I hold out our fist for a lane violation on A because they do not have anyone in the lower lane spaces. Now befor the thrower shoots the ball, his teammates come rushing out onto the floor down onto the lane spaces. Now we have double violation, cancel the throw and go to the arrow. Arrow belongs to the fouling team. So we award the ball to the fouling team and of course the coach of the throwers team goes ballistic. We tried to calmly explain the double violation to him but all he could say was that his player should get his free throws because the opponents committed the first violation. Any way , to make a long story short, the fouling team ended up losing in O.T. so it didn't affect the outcome of the game. But did we handle it correctly. In talking with a very experienced official who has workd several state tourneys, he said we should have basically ordered the fouling team to occupy the low blocks and if they delayed at all in doing so then hit them with a T right away. Comments.

I can see the case for the T. Resuming play procedure is to be used after timeouts and intermissions. The thirty-second period to replace a player is not a timeout (at least, by definition), so (by a very strict reading) you cannot have the resuming-play procedure afterwards.

You handled the play correctly.
Your veteran official friend is wrong.
You can't call a T on B for failing to occupy the first spaces.
It's simply a violation in this case.


I'm a goof! Just ignore! :eek:

Sorry Mark!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 5th, 2002 at 09:06 PM]

The technical here would be for refusing to play after being so ordered by an official, would it not?

No. You can't order a player to occupy a space. It's simply a violation if he doesn't and the FT is missed.

I disagree, Tony. If it's not after a TO, the defense MUST occupy the lower spaces. If they don't / refuse, it's a team T for delay.

See 10.1.5C (b)

Yep, you're right. The original post had me thinking in terms of resuming play.

Hey, I'm a goof, too with some of these rules!

Not that I'm keeping track, but I think the score is still BktBallRef/TH 100 - Mark Dexter 1 with who corrects whom :).

It's always meant to help you. Don't take it any other way. ;)

Not at all. I'd much rather be helped here than "helped" by a coach/fan who (for some strange reason) correctly yapped at a call of mine.

Let Schmidt start his own dern post and answer mine. The question I had was after reading Rule 8-1-3 a. ...unless the resuming play procedure is in effect.
What does that mean? Is it not a violation because I was using the resuming play procedure?

Devdog69,you had the correct call in both cases.You were right to use the "resuming play" procedure after a called TO.Casebook play 8-1-2Comment also supports you.MJ Schmidt's sitch was different than yours.

Jurassic, thanks for the help. However, 8.1.2 Comment still has that phrase, ...unless the resuming-of-play procedure..is in effect. I really haven't gotten a rock-solid answer to my problem, lots of support but no rulebook support. I would hope as experienced officials with a tough rule question or interpretation, just having our colleagues vote, or say "yea, you got it right" will not be enough. I am not going to a coach and say "well, my pals on officialforum.com said so".

I did finally find a case on this situation that did support the way I handled it, and everybody was right. I was just disappointed that no better rule references were given, I was about to assume there weren't any that specifically covered this. Alas, 9.1.2 covers the exact situation. Thanks everybody.

First let me say that devdog69 in the original post used the resuming play procedure correctly. 9-1-2 seems to back you up. Nice Job by the way! That happens so rarely, it's got to feel good to get that one right.

As far as the other post (Schmidt) - that's a totally different question and the resumption of play procedure is NOT in effect, but bob jenkins, please give me a rule citation for this being a Technical foul for delay.

I've just spent 10 minutes looking in the rules book and I can't find that anywhere. I feel pretty sure it's there and I'm just missing it, so if you could give me a citation I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Jake

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 112448
Page 60 of the case book, 9.1.2, the second sentence says,
"In this case (after a T.O.), the trail official uses the resuming-play procedure even though the first spaces are not occupied, wheareas in other cases, the spaces would have to be properly occupied before the official would proceed with the free throw administration."

This is the right procedure to use after a TO.But if the other team then refuses to occupy the bottom spaces,you use another rule(10-1-5c).


The R.O.P. procedure was not in effect and he did not warn the fouling team that they were potentially going to receive a 'T' for huddling - which is the only thing i can find you could possibly give a 'T' for in this sitch. My guess is that if you gave the coach a warning, he/she would have his/her players out there pretty quick.

Schmidt did warn the team.He blew his whistle said"there is no time-out.Lets play ball".

In that case, Schmidt should have called a T, not a double lane violation. Now Team A really has a gripe. They should have been allowed to attempt their FT's, they should have received 2 more FT's for the T, and they should have gotten possession of the ball.

IMHO, blowing your whistle and yelling, "there is no time-out. Let's play ball.", is not a very professional ore effective manner for giving a warning. One of the 2 or 3 officials should have walked to the huddle and told the coach that his/her players were required to be on the low blocks or a T could be called for delay.

Jake

I didn't type "10-1-5c" (rule book cite), I typed "10.1.5C (b)" (case book cite). (The rules book uses dashes; the case book uses periods.)

You don't need an official warning because the delay is not for huddling or contact with the free-thrower. The delay is a violation of 10-1-5b (rule book).

Still, I agree that you should tell the coach that the lower spots must be occupied before just issuing the T.

First, to Devdog, I didn't mean to steal your thunder at the start of this topic. I was just chiming in with a similar situation that happened to me. Sorry.
Secondly, When I blew my whistle and said "there's no timeout, lets play ball" I wasn't attempting to warn the teams for delay. I was simply trying to keep the game moving along before a situation did develope. In thinking back about it, maybe we should have gone over to the teams huddles and gotten them back out on the floor. Anyway thanks for all the replies.