1. you are slot table side. a1 brings the ball into the front court, passes around the perimeter and a2 from opposite table table shoots a 15 ft jumper. as you are observing back side rebounding a3 dislodges b1 under the basket and:
a) the ball rebounds towards b1/a3
b) the ball rebounds towards a2 and away from b1/a3
c) the basket is good.
what would you guys call on this play?

How much? 1 inch, 1 foot, across the court?

b1 is positioned 5ft from the basket an a3 moves him forward 3-4 ft.

In A I have a foul
In B and C I have a no call.

Please show me in the NFHS/NCAA Rules BookS where you ignore the foul committed in Plays B and C. There is no advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer; except when Coach B commits a technical foul while A1 is on a one-nothing fast bread (see the NFHS Casebook). To have a "no call" (oh how I dislike that phrase) in Plays B and C is a classic example of "seeing the whole play" (I also dislike this phrase.) is just not allowed by the rules.

The contact by A3 against B1 is a foul and to wait to see what the shot does is not allowed by the rules. Please read my postings on incidental contact (NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37), and you will see that this type of intetpretation cannot be defended.

In High School, I wouldn't ignore this contact, but at the next level they teach you to no call this.

a) Foul if the movement prevents b1 from getting the rebound (if s/he gets it anyway, no call)

b and c) No call.

10-27-3 -- I don't view the "push" as preventing B1 from "participating in normal defensive movements" if the ball isn't there to be rebounded. Now, I won't give any benefit of the doubt to A3 -- that is, if the rebound was farther out than B1 was initially, or anyway close to him / her, I probably have a foul. And, your description of moving B1 3-4 feet is pretty severe.

Mark, advantage/disadvantage is crucial to basketball officiating. You can't use the rule book for everything. The rule book should not be your basis as when to call fouls. Foul calling is an artform that involves philosophy, judgement, experience, watching tapes, going to camps, and listening to teachers of the game. It is not something that is black and white. I would have no calls in b and c unless the contact is severe or violent.

Yup, Nope. Nope.
 

Agreeing with:
Dennis
Bob J.
eroe


If the game has been too physical and I want to rein it in, I'll do what Mark T. suggests... follow the rule and to heck with the flow.

mick

Foul for situation 1, maybe even an intentional foul. Some here may disagree on the intentional but I take a dim view of a play where a player is deliberately moved to gain advantage. Three feet of movement sounds deliberate to me.


Situation 2 ??? Tend to think I would call a common foul here. Have to see the play. ;)

No call.

You need to look at it more closely.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

Please show me in the NFHS/NCAA Rules BookS where you ignore the foul committed in Plays B and C. There is no advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer; except when Coach B commits a technical foul while A1 is on a one-nothing fast bread (see the NFHS Casebook). To have a "no call" (oh how I dislike that phrase) in Plays B and C is a classic example of "seeing the whole play" (I also dislike this phrase.) is just not allowed by the rules. The contact by A3 against B1 is a foul and to wait to see what the shot does is not allowed by the rules. Please read my postings on incidental contact (NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37), and you will see that this type of intetpretation cannot be defended.

You have every right to your opinion. But the rules does use a advantage/disadvantage provision in it. It is just not worded that way. You need to look in the Incidental Contact rule 4-27 and look at what the rule says about contact and affecting "normal offensive and defensive movement." And if I am not mistaken (not looking at the book right now) I do see something about not matter how "severe" the contact might be. If that is not advantage/disadvantage, I really do not know what the heck is.

Peace

my philosophy on these types of rebounds are in
a) i would call a foul.
b & c) i would not call a foul-i would also remember the play and player. by remebering the play i can be more alert for the action the next time it happens and be ready to call the foul if the rebound was to come to an area where b1 has a chance to make a play on the ball.

the reason i would not call a foul is because no advantage has been gained. though a3 pushes b1 3ft or so b1 had no chance of rebounding. the term used on these plays is "game interuptor". my opinion on calling this a foul is that it interupts the flow of the game and is not a neccessary call to make.

now if a3 was a player that is disrupting the game by playing to rough or has been causing problems(taunting, or questioning every call, or just being plain out ***hole) i may call this a foul to convey the message that this game is getting to rough and the players need to play with less aggression and more control(basically reel the game in control). also if the push is excessive or a personal guesture to piss off a player a call needs to be made.

i think plays like these(b &c) are good tools for game management. if teams are playing in a good manner with good sportsmanship passing on these plays could be a good idea. you can always come in with a whistle to gain control when the play is ugly or rough to calm the game down.

another twist to this play is the same play but reverse a3 and b1.
if b1 were to push a3 in the situation B & C i would use the same philosophy because no advantage has been gained. and in situation C i would not want to score the basket and then give team A the ball back or put them on the line for freethrows.

gps-rebounding
 

I have to agree with ERoe39's assessment of these plays. Unless the fouls are so severe or flagrant in nature, I would pass and observe on both situations. Furthermore, I must echo the comments that play calling is a "learn as you go" experience. The more basketball "IQ" a person has, going to camps, breaking down tape OBJECTIVELY, learning from veterans, and constant play analysis with officiating friends and other officials help one to achieve the art of "play calling." The rulebook is a useful tool as well and one must apply those rules without taking them to one extreme or the other as a person sees it.

Great, I have really learned a lot from you guys. I realize I no longer have to watch all of my area and look off-ball. Any off ball contact really has no bearing on the play and there would be no advantage gained by the contact. I can now just take a nap when the ball is not in my area. Off-ball fouls are "game interrupters" and take away from the flow of the game.

Oooo - sarcasm so early in the New Year!! My, my, my...let's try to be rational here and understand that GOOD off-ball coverage means not only seeing the push in the original post, but also seeing the outcome of the push and seeing the entire play...if the push is severe enough - certainly call a foul in situation 2 and 3 - if you don't, there will be retaliation...however, not all contact needs to be called a foul as several others have tried to point out...the best officials at off-ball coverage know the difference between what needs to be called and what doesn't...

As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it.

We shot 39 free throws in one AAU Regional game last year and it was just an awful game, due mainly to the refs. Never seen so many whistles or so many fouls both ways. It was hard to have a possession without a whistle, and it wasn't a particularly physical game. The refs hit us hard in the first half and we had my starting 3 and her two back-ups on the bench almost the entire first half (and none of these players traditionally gets into foul trouble nor should they have been that game). No flow to the game whatsoever, and most of the calls should have been no-call (incidental contact). I have also had games where players can't get a shot off without getting hammered and the refs se it all as incidental. Can't really stand either sitch, but I particularly hate the excess fouls. It takes the game awayfrom the players.

Well, believe it or not, I am usually open to anyone's idea or opinion. However, I think I need to be realistic of my and others' situations. In my area and level, KS, JV & Varsity, if you let someone shove another player 3-4 feet and don't call a foul because the rebound went the other direction or the ball went in, you will be eaten alive. Not picking on your philosophy, just will not work for my area at this time.

Yeah...yeah...what he said...

gps-6-rebounding
 

I really like the Hawks Coach 1st paragraph which paraphrases how a good official should handle the game.
Nice comments Coach!!!He stated, "As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it."

Nice job. I agree totally. Timing of the whistle and discipline on when to use it, is a tough trait to master!!

3-4 feet of mmovement may be enough to warrant a call. But there definitely is a range in which you make the call if it affects the rebounding situation, and don't make it if it has no impact. The excessive push will need a call because of it's potential impact on the game as a whole, rather than the particular play. Also, an excessive amount of movement after a push has impacted normal defensive (or offensive) movement, and therefore is not incidental to the immediate play. It's up to you to decide where the boundary is, and that is impossible to do reading a posted situation and trying to imagine what happened (in terms of amount of contact and impact on game/play).

But you can't call every bump under the boards or we will be playing past midnight in a JV game, with the varsity still to follow!

3-4 ft sounds worse than it is. it is basically one step which is not very much. i started to think about what i wrote and should have been more accurate.

crew,
It's not the distance that would catch my eye as much as the force would.
If a guy gets whiplash from being pushed and jarred from behind, it's an easy call for all of us, no matter how far he got displaced.
If the guy just kinds rides the push in his back and sorta goes with the flow, then 6'-8' may not be called.
Had ta be there, yo?
mick

Crew, Bbarnaky, HawksCoach, et al.

I probably agree with you more than I am admitting to myself. Yes, you would have to see the contact to judge whether it needed to be called. I remember a couple of weeks ago while waiting for our games my partner and I watched half of the JV game. They called 62 fouls, 22 in the 4th quarter alone and it was a 30 point game by halftime. I kept seeing fouls called that had absolutely no bearing on the play, er advantage, sometimes the dribbler would be already by the defender ready to streak for a layup, and tweet a reach foul on the defender. I don't think the kid even felt it a couple of times. We tried to hint around to them, but one of them is not to hip on taking advice from me as I was struggling to get JV games last year being basically new in town and he was doing some varsity, now we're flip-flopped and he doesn't like it. Heard him complaining while I was showering to the other varsity ref that he had more varsity games last year. No wonder. If you guys have any advice on things to do in the off-season to help a guy go to the next level, specifically any midwest camps you prefer, please e-mail me. Thanks.

devdog,
Well, it seems like your are on your way to a new level as indicated by keeping your mind open to some of the ideas on these forums.
mick

Basketball is a contact sport. Players do a lot of illegal(by rules) contact. I have to agree with Crew and rockyroad. I think we can have happy medium when it comes to making calls. the rule book is a guideline.

mick,
i totally agree. if the player in front is getting "whiplash" even on a 3-4ft push i would consider this severe or violent.

Hawks Coach said: As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it.

We shot 39 free throws in one AAU Regional game last year and it was just an awful game, due mainly to the refs. Never seen so many whistles or so many fouls both ways. It was hard to have a possession without a whistle, and it wasn't a particularly physical game. The refs hit us hard in the first half and we had my starting 3 and her two back-ups on the bench almost the entire first half (and none of these players traditionally gets into foul trouble nor should they have been that game). No flow to the game whatsoever, and most of the calls should have been no-call (incidental contact). I have also had games where players can't get a shot off without getting hammered and the refs se it all as incidental. Can't really stand either sitch, but I particularly hate the excess fouls. It takes the game awayfrom the players.


Bart Tyson said: Basketball is a contact sport. Players do a lot of illegal(by rules) contact. I have to agree with Crew and rockyroad. I think we can have happy medium when it comes to making calls. the rule book is a guideline.


Let me address Bart's commet first: Basketball is a NON-contact sport. I did not say that all contact is illegal. I just said that basketball is a NON-contact sport. What does that mean? It means that there will be incidental contact from time-to-time and that contact is legal. It also means that contact from an unfavorable position in relationship with an opponent or contact that puts an opponent at a disadvantage not intended by the rules is illegal and therefore an infraction of the rules.

Now let me address Hawks Coach's comments: The problem that I see in your game is not one of game officials "not" letting the players play the game, but one where the players did not want to play the game within the rules of the game. When this happens, two things can happen. The team's coach can tell his players to play the game according to the rules or the team's coach can complain about the officials "not" letting his players play the game.

That leads to my favorite coaches' comment. On something that looks like a close block/charge/no-call ;), the lead is able to see the defender initiate the illegal contact. What does coach knucklehead respond? "Keep doing that, B2! It looked good from here!"

Mark -
The problems here are two. First, you did not read my statement closely enough. THIS WAS NOT A PHYSICAL GAME. Read this statement however you like. I have coached over 200 games in the past two years, around 150 with this team alone. This is AAU Regionals, where physical play is common (and I do not mean that physicial play = illegal play - please watch any HS or college game and find one possession without some sort of contact beween at least two players). In a game that was less physical than most we had played in the months preparing for Regionals, it was called tighter than I have seen in all my years coaching (I am not exaggerating) - so tight that neither team could play their game.

Problem number two, you did not see this game but talk as if you did. You assume (I seem to remember you have an opinion about the use of this awful human habit!) that our players were outside the rules. You also seem to hint that I am complaining mainly about fouls called on my team - I'm not - we spent the entire second half at the line and fouled out half their starters in a non physical game - that was a travesty of officiating. Neither team was playing physically or anything approaching what I have ever seen stretched to be considered illegal - and yet the whistle blew on nearly every one of our offensive possessions in the 4th quarter. We couldn't run our offense because we were too busy shooting free throws! When's the last time a coach b!tched to you that his team shot too many free throws - think about it Mark! And then please re-think what you said.

Been coaching a long time, have a pretty good feel for what is and is not in the rules, and even how to get my players to adjust when the officials call it tight. I ALWAYS ADJUST to the the calls as made (and have made this clear in previous posts if you read this board as often as I think you do) But my players and I can adjust only where it is realistically possible to do so. If you call a travel every time my player makes a legal pivot or palming on every legal crossover, we are going to have a hard time adjusting to what you are calling. We will find it impossible to play within the rules because the ref is not allowing us to do so. The same is true if you blow the whistle every time two bodies make contact, or appear to make contact, no matter how slight and regardless of the impact on a play. I am not talking about adjusting to whether or not handchecks or illegal screens are being called tightly - we do that all the time.

You weren't there, I was. I rarely ever complain about officials, never blame a loss on them, didn't say a word to these officials during this game, tried to help my players adjust, etc. I certainly wouldn't blame our loss on them (our awful FT % and several botched put-backs in that game killed us - not the refs fault). And I know we all have bad days, coaches, players, refs, parents, coworkers - everyone. But this was an ugly game and it would take all the fun out of basketball if every game I coached was reffed like this one. And luckily they are not.

NON- contact sport
 

Mark - Where do you get this concept? The rule book differentiates between contact that is incidental and contact that is illegal. It even allows that incidental contact may be severe in nature. In other words, contact is accepted as part of the game - how can this game then be considered non contact??? If this was a non-contact sport, no contact (no matter how slight) would be incidental. If your pinky touches me, we have to stop play because that is contact.

However, in the interest of full disclosure, I must also say that I struggle with the blanket statement that the rule book provides guidelines. It does not - it gives rules. The problem with fouls is that the rules are not as clear as something like an OOB violation (i.e., you step on the line - you violated - pretty obvious). The incidental contact provisions allow (in fact require) referees to exercise judgement. Many (most?) other rules in the book are not like this at all.

Contact is expected on every possession of any good game, and occurs on every half-court possession of any good game. The ref must determine when that contact is such that it becomes a foul. That determination cannot be made from the rule book, because the dividing line is not clear by rule. It is determined by experience, by observing other refs call games, seeing what seems to make a game flow well, and learning from all of this what is incidental and what is a foul. And while no two refs may see it exactly alike, there is a range that refs should remain within. If you are way out there either way, not too many people are going to be happy with the games you call. And those games are liable to be uglier than the average game for that level of play.

Re: NON- contact sport
 

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks Coach!

Jake

Hawks Coach, whether the game is physical or not has nothing to do with my statement. Players sometimes play out of control or try to do things that they are not capable of doing and everybody wants to blame the officials for all the fouls that are committed.

My H.S. coach won 378 games in 21 years and 15 league championships. He was also registered H.S. basketball official during those years. And he always told us that an official never commits a foul or a violation, or misses a field goal or free throw attempt, or makes a turnover; the players do all of those things and the officials are the people responsible for seeing that rules infractions are called. He also said the no official ever won or lost a game for a team.

With regard to incidental contact. I never said that contact does not happen during a basketball game. When there is contact it is either incidental or it is a foul.

One more time Mark, since you just do not get it. The calls that were being made were phantom fouls. The refs didn't commit them, but neither did the players. Players were not out of control, were not reaching, were just playing a normal game of ball, and the whistle was the only thing on the court out of control. I'm sorry if you have a hard time accepting that this happens, but it does. I'm glad it does not happen often. Because it makes it impossible to have a good game of ball, period.

As for your coach's comment, I agree 100%. That is exactly what I said my philosophy. I never allow our players to blame the refs, even if I think that they did a poor job. I never let my players know that I think the refs are doing a poor job. That's simply an excuse to lose. And in this particular case, I wasn't complaining about the refs taking one from us. From where I sat, it seemed that they were doing everything in their power to give it to us by sending us to the line.

And, by the way, I do believe that you can blame refs for allowing a situation to become ugly by not managing a game properly (too many whistles, too few, poor communication, lack of awareness, etc.). You folks control the action on the floor. I never blame the refs for the final score, but poorly managed (by the ref) games will almost always be bad games, regardless of how the players want to play it. I haven't had many, but those I have had, I have hated and only wanted them to end.

When a officiating crew has to call a lot fouls, it is never the players' fault, it is the officials' fault for "not" letting the players play.

Coach, I think that it is time for you to become a basketball official. Please look up IAABO Board #12 District of Columbia and Montgomery Co., MD) or #134 (southern Maryland). The good people in those Boards would love to have you take the officiating class next school year.

If he goes to board 12, maybe we'll be in the same class :).

Again, not what I am saying. If fouls are being committed call them. End of subject. I have never complained about that. I guess you will never admit that an official can have one awful game in 100, or that 2 officials out of 100 could have a tendency to call games poorly, and when they get paired up, the game goes badly because the refs can't keep up with the level of play. That was my only point. But in your mind, officials can never be at fault for anything that happens on the court.

As I explained before, with a family (wife, two kids) that doesn't participate in basketball, a full-time job, a part-time career as a Navy Reservist, and a coaching schedule of 100 games a year, you won't see me in stripes any time soon. But I have attended rules clinics and participate in boards like these so I can better understand the game.

Coach,
Don't feel the need to defend yourself.
Most everyone here can read and understand what kind of game you work.
mick

on hoopsref.com/forums joe forte has addressed this issue very well. he has more credibility than i or any oneelse that i know. the forum is very similar to this one just not as well known. (only deals with basketball though)

crew,
That new forum has a chance. I understand there are some good posters there.
This forum was very underused two years ago.
Who is Joe Forte and what makes him more credible than you?
mick

joe forte. former nc2a d1 official worked the finals a couple of times in the 80's. has worked the gold medal game in the olympics. has worked in the nba since 88, and has also officiated the finals there. he is currently the only official to ever accomplish the grand slam in officiating.(highschool finals, nc2a,nba,olympics) he is a very resourceful official and give great info on the site. he is a great promoter of officiating.

Oh, my!
Seems like a guy oughta visit there.
Thanks, crew.