Evaluation of camp observer
 

Went to a camp this weekend, and had a disagreeable situation made worse by the observer watching my game. We were working on 3 person officiating and my crew (I was acting as Referee as I was the most experienced) worked the second half of a closely competitive game (high school varsity).

Within 5 min, it was obvious that the teams did not like each other and the game started getting rougher. We signaled each other it was time to watch and call more contact to control the game better. After a few calls, I made an off-the ball call for grabbing a cutter (from the C position). I take a few steps towards the play winding up about 5 feet from the two players who had turned around and were facing each other. I started screaming at them to break it up (had to, games were progressing on both sides of us). One shoved the other, and immediately, a teammate shoved the initiator. I grabbed the shovee, my partners grabbed the shovers, and we were busy sorting it all out, ejecting two and identifying the players who had left the bench.

Now, the observer comes over from the far side line screaming and taking “control” over the situation. There was no mistaking that he was taking role of MFWIC (Mother f**ker whats in charge). He sorts it all out, talks to the teams, and begins to berate me for not being in control of it all.

Now, here some questions:
1. It was recommended that I should have stepped between the players as they were ready to take physical action rather than screaming at them and blowing my whistle.
2. Was the observer correct in taking action? Or, should he have stayed there and taken the opportunity to observe and evaluate our (my) ability to restore order and control?
3. If your evaluation is that he was incorrect to insert himself, should I follow up with the camp director? (Of course, the observer is now broadcasting to everyone that I failed in my duties.) By the way, the observer failed to notice that players had left the bench. If I retained control, I was about to terminate the game, as there were too few players to continue.

1. Yes, get between them immediately to prevent the first shove. Usually that's all they need to back off, occasionally not.

2. The observer should have kept out of it.

3. Sure, talk to the director. Don't whine about it, just explain what happened from your perspective and ask if he has any advice.

Most of the time, stepping between two players works well, but you do have to be careful. If you sense that the situation has gone too far (i.e., a punch is imminent), stay back and do what you can from a safe distance.

IMO, you did a fine job not stepping between players you could have been in risk of getting punched. In this situation, the attitudes festered for an entire half before you stepped on the court. Normally, a tweet on the whistle and a verbal I got the foul works.

you might ask if there's game tape available and see if there's another observer from that camp who would be willing to look at the situation with you. Don't take the perspective that your observer screwed you, but that you'd like to add to your list of possibilities for how to handle the situation.

The other thing you might have done at the moment (if you could have gotten a word in edgewise) would have been to ask for details from the obwerver you were dealing with. "I see. Now how do you do that, specifically? I'm not a very confrontational person, so specfic sentences or physical actions would be helpful, if you could describe them." This gives you something that might be useful in another game, and it gives the observer the idea that you're listening to him even if you think he's a complete jerk.

I would imagine that the observer would have a little different story than what you typed here. There are usually 3 sides to every story. By what you called the observer (MFWIC), it is obvious that you are a little angry. That anger may be clouding your perception of everything that happened in that game. I think Rainmaker's idea of watching the tape with another observer is a good one.

It sounds to me as if the observer felt that he had no choice but to jump in because the game was completely out of control. Maybe he was even angry with HIMSELF for not jumping in earlier before the fracas started.

Agreed, must camps I have attended the observer knows in advance who is working on the court they are observing. IMO, there were plenty of opportunities for the observer to point out the game is getting out of control.

Sounds good to me......

In a 3-man crew, the closest 2 officials need to get in between, if they can. The third official needs to hang back and get the peripheral stuff and take numbers. Should be part of a good pre-game.

Did you work just the Second half of this game?
If So did you observe the first half?

Were there signs in the first half of this conduct - Obviously there were signs that it was getting rougher - what could you have done to prevent this before it happened?

Were there any communications or oportunities to communicate with players - coaches that might have helped to aleiviate this from boiling over. Sometimes it just happens.
But as someone said pior to me (rainmaker) see if there is tape you can watch and critique your crews performance, honestly and see if there is something you can learn from it.
Doesn't sound like the observer was all that professional -
However I also suggest never getting inbetween players if it looks like it is escilating beyond the shouting stage. NEVER EVER GRAB them if one gets hit while you are holding them you are going to have a big problem. push them a part or stay out of the way, Take names, Take number and Issue penalties if it has gotten that far that is all you can do!

Maybe it is just the camps/evaluators I have encountered but I have always been told NOT to get in between players in a situation like this. I did it once and was ripped by the evaluation at camp and told by 5 other members on staff before the end of the day never to make that mistake again. One even said "Last thing your partner or partners need is to have a fight break out AND have you out cold from a haymaker you didn't see coming." They made it clear to get close, try to calm the situation verbally and be prepared to take numbers and administer the penalties should things escalate.

Now, if it is early and the first signs of a problem (players just jawing and not close) I will get between them...if we have tried that, have been talking and asking the coaches for asssistance and it still looks bad...I going to follow the sage advice of the camp clinicians.

That's the situation that I was referring to when I agreed that you can try to get in between players. As Dan said, if you can prevent the <b>first</b> shove, you're doing your job. Iow, if I think I can stop it from breaking out, fine. If they look like they're serious and are gonna go, no matter what, let their coaches and teammates break 'em up.

ditto to what he said!!!!!!!

I think OHBBREF had a great point...was the game heading out of control in the first half? You may have stepped into a situation not of your making. I doubt at halftime the coaches told the players to take a well-played game and turn it into a brawl. It could have been this was festering for a whole half and finally exploded.

And I'd really get nervous about stepping in between two 6'5" guys for any reason.

There are a lot of variables in the original situation that were not presented clearly. What type of camp was it? Was it a tryout camp for a college contract, or was it a learning camp for HS refs to become playoff eligible or for JV refs to move up to varsity? What is your experience level, and at what level are your partners for that game? Who is the evaluator? Obviously the evaluator is a more seasoned official, but is he a college ref, a head of an association or what? All of these questions serve to provide context for what happened, and the fact that this is a HS varsity game could mean many things, it could be the level you are used to working or a higher or lower level.

Based on the context of the post, I'll assume that the majority of your crew was officiating a game that is more competitive than what they are used to officiating and that the eval is likely a college ref. Part of the job of the evaluator is to keep control on the court and ensure that a game doesn't get stupid. When he saw a fight starting to break out, he took necessary action to prevent that based on his experience. It probably would be a good idea to take note of what he did and consider using some of it the next time you get into this type of a situation because the evaluator was clearly able to command respect and restore order, which is the job that the officials on the court usually have.

I think a letter or a word to the camp director is WHOLLY INAPPROPRIATE and it will make you look VERY, VERY, VERY BAD. The evaluator is there for a reason: in some way he has gained enough trust and respect from the camp director to be put in that position. Just because you, as a camper disagree with the evaluator's philosophy or handling of a situation doesn't mean you go complaining to the camp director because the only thing it will accomplish is painting you as a whiner and a troublemaker, two labels that will kill you politically. Take the advice and the criticism for what it's worth, learn from it or discard it, but ultimately use it or let it go. If there's a decision to be made about you, whether you're gonna improve your schedule or get hired, that decision is out of your hands, and if this incident prevents you from moving up, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it now, there's no appeal process. Continuing to pursue this issue out of anger certainly won't help you out now, and it may very well destroy your chances in the future rather dropping it, which would allow you to come back next year with a clean slate.

1. The best referees know how to control a game.
2. Once players shove each other, the game is out of control.
3. Never believe that you did all you could do to stop a fight. You could always have done more.
4. The clinician, being a referee who knows how to control a game, took control of the situation.
5. You are spending too much time thinking about what he did, rather than figure out what your role was in the game getting out of control.
6. Focus your thoughts on the time that you walked onto the floor until the time that the players pushed each other. That will make you a better official, which is why we attend camp in the first place, right?

Imo both of those points are utter nonsense.

That's really not true for every situation. Sometimes, you can't see them coming and other times, you can see it happening, but it's too late or too heated.

Like the line in Good Will Hunting, when a fight does break out, "it's not your fault."

Jurrasic,

You and your assignor are watching the tape of a game you worked and the players in the game start to push each other. Could you look your assignor in the eye and say that you had everything under control?

Number 3 was a sweeping generalization. Forgive me. I should have said that you could USUALLY have done something different to prevent a fight.

I disagree -and I have had a fight break out on my court that seemd to come out of nowhere. but upon reviewing the tape there were obvious signs of it - the little chips on people going through the lane - the chicken wings in the post - a little push here or a shove there - that if addressed verbally or with a whistle could have kept things in line.
Granted there may be that immediate blow up from one spectacular incident that just happened which is the exception not the rule.

But as an observer told me this year and I believe it was from another NBA official at Joe Derosa's Camp "If a fight Breaks out on your court it is your fault".
When the film gets to the assignor and the conference people who and what are they going to be looking at - the way the officials handled the game what could they have done to prevent this.

I could look anyone in the eye under those circumstances and say "I had control of the game up to that point". I could also look 'em in the eye and say "I also maintained control of the game after that point". If I took care of the situation properly, then at no time was the game ever out of control.

Players starting to push each other are not necessarily the fault of an official. Sh!t simply happens sometimes- out of nowhere. I don't think that you can ever make a blanket statement blaming the officials for losing control just because a player happened to push another player.

I disagree that once players shove each other the game is out of control. There are couple of players out of control, but dealing with them and talking to the teams may very well result in a good game from that point forward.

I also got the impression that the evaluator berated the OP on the floor. If that is not the case, then the poster is being overly sensitive.

However, If that is the case, IMO, that was uncalled for. Maybe something needed to be said to get their attention or get them refocused. Sage advice at that point was certainly needed and probably would have been welcomed. In the privacy of the tape room if there was something obvious the officials missed or screwed up...that is the appropriate time to dress them down. Doing so in public is unprofessional. For me, I couldn't care less if a clinician is the greatest official to ever put on a striped shirt...he should still conduct himself professionally when working at a camp. I have seen evaluators at camps rip an official a new arse hole in front of everyone...including spectators and players. I often wonder how they would feel if they were the one being humiliated or, if it has happened to them, if they remember how they felt during those moments. I also wonder if the target when that is happening is not simply hearing "Blah, blah, blah, blah"?

Thank you all for your advice. You have given me greater insight into the situation and how to handle it correctly.

Space limited my description of the event, but it was evident, as Zebraman detected, I was and still am angry about the actions of the observer. Due to space, I did not mention that we have had a run in previously so we have a history. But, reading the comments of all board members, maybe the observer has a point.

For Zebraman: the camp was an instructional not a formal tryout for new assignments. There is no tape of the games. I am sure the observer would have a different story, but that is in his nature. Every other observer and clinician I have worked with has been supportive and educational; they would not yell at a student, “It’s all your fault!!!!” Hey, I was the guy who called the off-ball foul that started the whole deal! In fact, I was angry that he picked on me. Now I realize that at least he was talking to me! He was angry at everyone that the game on HIS court got out of control. But to his credit, he did spend 3 min talking to me after the event, trying to teach me to take this attitude into every game; this is MY game and it will be played the way I was taught is correct.

For OHBBREF: while we were watching the first half, I was reviewing procedures with my partners. The game seemed to be a normal game, although the teams had a hard time scoring. As a camp game, with 2 others on either side, it was hardly a normal situation. But, instead of talking amongst ourselves about the game getting rougher once we noticed it, we should have found the time to talk to the coaches. Good point.

For SNEngman. As above, it was a learning camp, focusing on 3 man mechanics which is slowly entering our area. I have worked 12 yrs in the Midwest and east coast. Last year I did large school JV, small school varsity and JUCO ball. My partners were 2- and 4- yrs. The evaluator was the assignor for an adjoining school league. The evaluator was an experienced DI referee. Having learnt an important lesson, I will seriously consider going back to that camp next year – with a different attitude.
Your final advice will be followed – it is very good advice. No one can misquote you if don’t say anything.

For Irpalmer3: #5 and #6. Obviously, we (all 3 of the crew) were too busy focused on where we stand and where we look to see the overall degree of deterioration of the game. We were focused on US not them.

Thank you all for helping. You have given at least me, a better insight into these events, and more importantly, how I can use this experience to officiate to a higher standard.

For LarryS: Your assumption is correct, the evaluator berated me on the floor. That is a source of my anger. Since I teach (Professor of Medicine) that is unprofessional behavior from any teacher. In the moment, I had to work hard not to hear only, “Blah, blah, etc.”
Your final thought is most appropriate, “I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you!” When I run into him at my next camp in July, I will probably pull him over and thank him for his lesson, but critique him on his methods.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda is great, but there's a big difference between being in the game and watching it on tape afterwards. Once you know that a fight occurred, you look at everything that came prior in a different light.

Yes, a more experienced official may notice what's going on and may address it, but that's no guarantee that a fight still won't break out. If it did, then you would never see a fight in a major conference D-I or NBA game.

With all due respect to this NBA official, that's total bull. Unless I throw a punch, I'm not at fault for a fight, EVEN IF the warning signs are crystal clear and I ignore them.

They SHOULD be looking at how my crew handled the fight. If my crew does that well, but the conference wants to fire us because a fight happened, I'd willingly resign.

I strongly recommend not doing this. His methods do sound flawed, but I think a better venue for that discussion would be the camp director, after you can process your anger. This guy doesn't sound like he'd be a good camper -- willing to listen and learn from anyone. If you (an underling in his mind) try to talk to him about his work, he'll just treat you worse next time. At least, I'd guess this to be the case.

The approach to the camp director is to say, "I think I could have learned more, and the others would have too, if he'd been less confrontational and less accusatory in his approach. I am frankly considering not coming to this camp again if he continues to be a clinician. I just don't learn well in this environment."

If you can give this feedback in a business-like manner without a lot of heat, I think the camp director might seriously consider it. Unless he's the one that likes things that way, as some do. In which case, your best approach, for your own good, would be to simply not go back. Abuse is not a valid teaching technique.

Prof - I have to agree that the critique probably would have been better had it come after the game. No good ever comes from critiquing refs publicly - especially if there is still more of the game to complete. That said, at your next camp, it probably woul be best not to say anything. Critiquing his techniques before he critiques you may result in a bad situation for you.

Wow.

If you value your relationship with this director then I would suggest you not do this.

If you must just tell him you don't get along well with that observer and ask to not have him on your games. He may or may not be able to accomodate you. Don't make a big deal of it.

Of course, if you don't care then it doesn't matter what you say or do. But I suspect you do care or you wouldn't have come here to discuss.

Hmmm...

I suppose that depends on who the director is and what the relationship is. I see your point, though. The camps I go to aren't as high a level as the ones you go to, and generally there is a personal relationship between everyone in the camp, and that relationship continues outside of camp. This kind of abuse would be a huge knife in that setting, and the director would want to know about it asap.

I've been to a couple of camps where I suppose that wouldn't be the case and what you're saying makes more sense. But I couldn't handle the abuse and I have chosen not to work up to that level.

So refprof, you'd better take what I say with a grain of salt. It's going to depend on the situation how you approach coping with this kind of abuse.

I agree there are no guarantee's I am speaking in Generalities- but it is better to be pro-active than re-active.

I think the statement is meant to mean that as LrPalmer said again in generalities - there was probably something you could have done better to prevent it.

I am sure they are looking at that also - I do not think anyone is looking to fire you - they will however try to see if there was something you might have been able to do better and bring it to your attention.

There will always be the punches thrown because somebody said "Yo MAMA wears army boots" or a hard foul that truely came out of nowhere.
but In my experience in most instances of fighting or even some cases of almost fights might have been prevented had the officials dealt with things earlier in the game.

I also agree with Dan on this. I would not say anything to the tournament director about any clinician unless I was approached personally. Even then I would be very guarded. You are at a camp to learn, not to tell on the clinicians. Now if you are asked in a survey about the camp and it is anonymous then that might be OK. The bottom line is the tournament director hired the people for a reason. If you are at a camp to learn and people are making decisions about you based on the camp, I would stay away from that kind of interaction. Even if you do not like it I feel it would not be right to complain. Work your games, listen to the clinician and move on.

Peace

why are we so scared to voice our negative opinions to "higher ups" -- but anonymously its ok. george carlin said it best that the US is just "pu__ifying itself" -- if you really are "concerned" that this guy will look at you negatively because you expressed what you thought was an innapropriate action then do you really maybe want to work for this guy?

dont answer that because i know from personal experience that most officials will take whatever work they can get and move up and hate the situation and who they work for but kiss a$$ like none other. Instead to b!tching behind their back bring your concerns to them. What they do is out of your control but I know I will sleep better even if I am not working games for said person because he cannot seperate business from personal.

When you go to a job interview do you criticize the person running your interview about their outfit or bad breathe? Of course you do not. If you are at a camp I am going to assume that most of us are there to have people that have influence over our careers and what games we may or may not work.

Camps are job interviews. Even if you are trying to learn, the camp directors use these as ways to hire people and to see who can do the job as you move up the ranks. If you are always b!t@ching about something, someone is going to make a judgment about you that you might not like. Also most people paid money to go to any camp and put in their time they could have used elsewhere. So if you do not care about the consequences then say whatever you feel. But I sure am not going to give them ammo to take away an opportunity. It is not about losing sleep at all. If you do not want to get anything out of the camp, stay at home. It is your money and your time.

Peace

Jeff, I can see that you might be right for certain situations, as I think I said. It's gonna depend a lot on who the camp director is, and who the clinician is that you have trouble with, and other variables. For me, abuse is the best way to shut down my learning abilities. So if the camp is being run by my association, or by someone who's working to help the officiating in our area bet better, I'm gonna "tell". It's not just to tattle, but to make the camp better. I'm paying good money, or giving good time, and I'm not gaining anything.

I would word it pretty carefully, even so. It would probably be in the form of a "camp evaluation" after camp, and perhaps make it anonymous if I thought it would hurt me politically. The only way I'd go whining right after the incident is if I knew that there was some reason the director would want to know, or if the director specifically asked at some point.

But of course, there could be many situations where this would simply not be appropriate, and furthermore wouldn't be efficacious. I expect that would be most of the time

Regardless of whether I tattled or not, I'd definitely vote with my feet, but not attending that camp again if I couldnt be sure I wouldn't have that eval agian.

Two things you do not do at a camp -
1) is be the "Sure But" guy.
Say to the observer sure but this is the wayI do it.

2) Argue with the observer on the floor.
You will get conflicting information from observers on different
floors take what works for you and use it. Do what that observer
wants you to do on his floor. especially if you are trying to move up
or make an impression to get a contract. Its politics but arguing
with them sure will not work to your advantage. talk to them during
down time about what ever the issue is there will be something you
can learn from it.

Understand that we are giving opinions here. I am not telling you what to do or what not to do. This is ultimately up to you and each situation. I am just telling you what is likely to be the perception if you do not word your complaint carefully. And unless I knew the tournament director for 20 plus years and went on vacations with them, I would likely pass. I understand that if things do not go your way in a camp that in many aspects of life it is beneficial to say something, but there are times when silence is best if you do not want to alienate yourself from future consideration.

You can word it anyway you like, that does not mean you will not still come off the wrong way or the way you do not want to be perceived. You know how easily things that take place here can be get turned around and misinterpreted.

Once again I am giving my opinion. Just like anything in life there are people that can take it or leave it. I have attended multiple camps almost every year I have worked basketball and have attended high level D1 camps to the very poorly run camp for HS basketball. I cannot think of a single camp where someone is not watching and deciding things about you. You might not even be aware of this taking place. Just understand you are taking a chance and do not be completely surprised if this does not go over well. Even if you are completely right, you can be completely wrong. Just understand you are taking a risk no matter how you slice it.

Peace

i am not saying argue on the floor -- there is defintley a time and place.

i am stating that i would want any objections, if i were a camp director, to be brought to me regarding my camp. its like any job, changes are made when objections are brought to attention. usually, it is rare, that 1 person will only offend or step out of line with 1 other person. there is usually several

Well you are not a camp director and you have not picked the people to run the camp (from what I am reading in your responses). Also I am sure the camp director and the clinicians he or she picked they have a lot of trust in. And they really have that trust in those people if this is a higher level camp. A higher level camp has people that have proven themselves in ways you will never fully understand. For all you know the camp director might have told them to intervene in a situation like described. All I am saying to you it is risky. Now if you do not care then go right ahead and complain. Just do not be completely surprised when someone thinks your attitude was not right and they will not hire you or recommend you for another situation because of your words to the TD. If you are not hired it is not likely anyone is going to tell you the truth.

Peace

Maybe I am a fool...but aren't many of these camps a business. If I owned a business and an employee (clinician/evaluator) was hissing off my customers (campers) to the point that they were going to vote with their feet and wallets (not give me thier future business) I would want to know. I was taught early on that a happy customer may tell 10 people about their experience...if you are lucky. An unhappy customer will tell everyone they see.

As was mentioned above, it is highly unlikely that someone only angered one person...they are probably a repeat offender. Besides, why would I want to work for someone who makes it a practice to hire bu## heads and discriminate against those that complain and are offended by said BH?

I might have a different perspective if I was trying to work my way to the NBA...but I have a real job that supports my family comfortably. Even if I get the chance to work college some day it will still only be a hobby. If it is more than that to you...you probably should bite your tongue and take the abuse from unprofessional clinicians.

I don't know what you do in real life but if a customer complained to your boss about you would you be surprised if he fired you on the spot? There is such a thing as loyalty to your employees (btw in many of these camp situations the "employees" are unpaid volunteers, but that's another story). Well, to some of us it is more than a hobby, and that does not mean we have trouble supporting our families even to your lofty standards. Believe it or not you can have passion for and dedication to an avocation even though the little bit of extra money is not what keeps your kids from starving. Hard to believe, eh? Some of us aint in it for the money.

But if you're this thin-skinned around the 'unprofessional' types you certainly shouldn't be putting yourself in the position where you're exposed to passionate and dedicated coaches and players and biting your tongue is sometimes the best course. So it's win-win all around for you and them I guess.

Not only is there loyalty to their employees, there is also a huge myth that "The customer is always right." Depending on the field customers are not accommodated when customer’s requests are reasonable. I have been a manager over a corporate store and I can tell you it was quite often that we would dismiss the needs or wants of a customer. Also a camp is not a corporate endeavor. Officials go to camps to get a chance at a bigger opportunity. If you do not like a clinician, there will be someone waiting in the wings to take your spot. Keep that in mind.

Well unless most of us do not take the money, we do it for the money. The money might not be the thing that helps us to live our day to day lives, but even if the money pays for our gas, we are doing it for some reason associated with money. I also get your point; I just have not found anyone that just gives the money away to someone other than their family when they get the money for working games.

Peace

sigh i always forget all comments here are taken in a vacuum.

who mentioned firing the guy? at least you bring it to the directors attention--he chooses whether to act on it -- lets say you are the only one he might not do anything except mention is passing or if there are 2 or 3 others who complain as well he might want to have a talk with said person.

however one thing i failed to remember was that officiating and moving up is more political than business probably 90% politcial if not 100%. i see many decisions made because someone doesnt want to offend or hurt the other persons feelings or because of their relationship rather than making a decision that would maximize efficiency and output.

so in that i should have thought this out and said _ who gives a frack as the "business" of officiating is in its bubble. I act professionally on a court and I expect all other officials and those involved in our process and game to act accordingly. coaches/players get T'd up when they dont and fellow officials, even the bosses, will be confronted when needed. So far I have only had 1 experience with a location and its admin and I do not work games for them or at that location. It was my choice and its one that I am fine with. and this was an easy $40 for about an hour of work 5 minutes away from where I live. I value my experience in any situation more than the monetary gain or loss associated with said experience. I will work a very competitive tourney for half the normal rate because the games will be much more enjoyable to me. After all part of being an official is having the best seats in the house.

Hey Dan Ref...Get off your flippin high horse.

First...I never said I would complain to the people running the camp. I just said that if someone felt that adamantly about something they should not always be expected to sit there and take it. I honestly believe that, under the correct circumstances, your honest opinion can be heard...especially if it is voiced in an survey at the end of camp.

Second...No, I would not expect my boss to "fire me on the spot" if someone complained. I have worked in the past in positions where I interacted with the customer and ran customer service departments. Angry customers complain...I hope you understand that basic fact. One complaint...nothing...a few complaints...I take notice, especially if they relate to the same individual. Lots of complaints...now I have an issue to address.

Third...I have been ripped at a camp in front of others...it was however a local camp. The evaluator, who didn't know any of us or our experience, dressed us each down for missing rotations and being out of position. It was my second time as part of a 3-official crew...for one of my partners it was his 4th...the seasoned vet in the crew had a whopping 8 games under his belt. I stood there a took it...but discounted everything he said during our session. He worked a lot of D1...but he was an arse hole and had trouble relating to the campers (or so I was told by two others who "checked up" on us after he was finished). Why was he there...so the camp could advertise they had officials from X conference working as evaluators.

Fourth...Great, you have passion for officiating. I do as well, though obviously not at your level. I am happy for you. I assume you want to advance as far as possible. I wish you success and hope you attain your goal..and I am not being sarcastic. For someone like you, the advice to keep quiet is probably best.

Just because someone has reached the highest level and is trusted by others does not mean he is a great teacher. Some very intelligent people can't teach. Some very talented people cannot communicate well. That does not mean they are not very good at what they do. It simply means they suck at teaching.

I plan on going to bigger and better camps next year where the odds of encountering "passionate and dedicated coaches and players" are good (need to completly recover from the fractured vertibrae suffered in my car accident). If they want to rip me publically they can...won't impact my "officiating career" in the least as I will not be attending with the hope of getting hired...just the hope of getting better.

That probably upsets and disappionts you...

I don't own a horse Larry, but if I did I'm sure neither of us would disappointed by anything you did, do, or plan on doing.

Thanks for caring though.

Gotta go find a squirrel, but you go ahead and have yourself a good life.

Then why are you always hearing <i>"and the horse you rode in on...."</i>?

Just wondering, is all.....

That's why I got rid of the damn thing.

And got a dog that's bigger?

Helluva plan.....:rolleyes:

He was about the size of my now dead cat when I got him.

Who knew?

(He's still a big pussy btw...that's why I named him as I did)

God'll get you for that......

Let's plan on having lunch there together.

http://www.fahad.com/pics/hell.jpg

Then do not complain when it does not go over well. I am just saying I do not think it is a good idea. If you disagree, go complain until your run out of things to say.

Here is the thing; you are so stuck on the politics. There is politics in everything. If you piss off any decision maker, they can and will hold things against you. Why give them the ammo. But then again, if you cannot take someone running their camp like they want to, do not attend the camp or pursue working for them. It is really easy decision. When I do not like the way a camp is run, then I do not go again or work for that person. I certainly do not go around complaining about it. Oh well.

Peace

So an evaluator gets on you and that is a problem? Welcome to the real world of camps. That happens all the time. It happened to me last summer and I got over it. He was one guy and he could not understand a mechanic I was using. I stood there, nodded my head and moved on. I did not rip him to other campers and worked my next game. BTW, all the evaluators were D1 officials at this camp.

Also what did the guy do in the OP anyway? He stepped in on a summer game where it is common for coaches and even fans to sometimes approach the camp directors about the officials or situations involving the situation. Not only are situations kind of common for some interaction with an evaluator and a coach, I have seen evaluators have very heated words with coaches. What did this guy do that we would have to complain about? I did not realize these games have the same protocol as a regular season game?

Peace

As Rut says this situation is not unique - I made a great call early in a game at camp this year and then blew a bang - bang back court violation a minute later that nobody in the gym but the evaluator and myself realized I missed - all we talked about was that call for ten minutes after the game and why I missed it.
Welcome to camp!

If you want to get better you go to camps to learn - it is just like any other school - you take something away from every class you go to - good or bad -
the original OP when he stops and thinks about it - he may have learned that some day when he is in a similar situation that he didn't like being trated that way so he will not do it to others.

Officiating is life - you learn things in officiating that you can use in your every day life with others and you learn things in life that you can apply to officiating. All of the things you learn will not be fun and joyful experiences - open your mind and find away to take something away from the experience that you can use.

Guess I should have been a little more detailed in that section...I thought the point would be apparent. I didn't say I had a problem with being ripped. It has happened before, and unless I die today, will probably happen again for something...can't please everyone. This person obviously didn't know any of us...which is normal at a camp. One would think, that if his goal was help us improve, that he would ask about us. Several times I have had evaluators come up to us before a game and ask how long each of us had been officiating and how much experience we had in 3-person work. Wouldn't you expect officials with virtually no experience to miss rotations.

My feeling was he wasn't concerned with teaching us what we needed to know at that stage of our development...he was just angry we were not doing things he thought were obvious. Nothing is obvious to a newbie. Teach them, don't berate them for being new.

I learned a lot at that camp...just not from him. I also admire his ability but do not respect him as an instructor and feel he really needs to work on his off the floor approach. It didn't help my opinion of him as an instructor to see him badger others publically...and I am sure he is losing sleep over that. :)

I like really like how you worded that... is that your material?

Larry,

I was referring to the original post, not your story.

For the record I would expect newer officials to miss rotations. I would expect experienced officials to miss rotations. But if you miss one and I am a clinician, expect me to say something about it. I know if you miss a play because you do not rotate a coach is not going to change his behavior because you are newer. I am sure this guy was no worse than a coach when you miss a play. Having said that I was not there and I did not know how bad it was. But that is also how things happen in camp and you have to just get over it.

I am an experienced official and last year I was ripped for 10 minutes about a situation in front of 20 officials and I got over it.

Peace

My very own feel free to use

Make checks payable too ................. :)

Hahaahha
So when using the quote, it should read as follows:


Officiating is life - you learn things in officiating that you can use in your every day life with others and you learn things in life that you can apply to officiating. All of the things you learn will not be fun and joyful experiences - open your mind and find away to take something away from the experience that you can use.

- OHBBREF

ANY time you go to a camp - whether you know the clinicians or not - you should realize that there will be different personalities there, and some of them will be calm, rational people (like our own beloved Jurassic :D ), and some will be yellers and screamers (like our own M&m Guy :mad: )...if you can't handle those types of people, don't go to a camp...

I agree with the clinicians having vastly different personalities. Recently I attended my first ever camp & some clinicians were focused more on campers appearance than the calls they missed, others were more focused on position rather than the quality of calls, some were even focused on the way we ran.

After day 1, I figured out how to be as successful as possible with each clinician. I showed up to my assigned court two games prior to my game & went in on the huddles to see what exactly they were/weren't looking for. Then I made sure I did what was expected of me for that particular clinician.

For the record, 80% of my games were with D1 officials, so when we huddled up guess who received the majority of the criticism???? I just shook my head yes, smiled & uttered the phrases "yes sir, thank you sir & I'll work on it sir" over & over again. It was a very humbling experience to say the least!! I start my second camp tonight & can't wait to hear how everything I learned doesn't apply here :D

...and some are just butt-kissers and severely medicated, like our own rockyroad...

:p

True. I've never yelled at anyone during an evaluation. I don't believe in teaching through intimidation. Just list what they need to work on and where they need to improve, and always find something half-way good that they did do so you can end the evaluation on a positive note.

<font size =-2>Shh...this is very good advice, and I agree with it. But I don't want it to get out because it might ruin my reputation...</font size>

None of the medications I take are severe...there are a few strange side effects, but as long as it doesn't last more than 36 hours, I don't have to go see the doctor again!!:eek:

http://weekends.onesite.com/images/b...os/popcorn.jpg

This is getting good. :D

Great!!!Why, you may ask. Because it matters. We're salespeople out there. It doesn't matter if you got the call right if no one believes you. How you look has a huge role on your believability....particulary if you're an unknown to the coaches/players. Do you appear confident and capable? Do you appear in sufficient shape to keep up? Do you appear like you care? Do you look like you pay attention to detalis? Do you appear focused and ready? If you walk into the gym with a negative first impression, you may have hard time recovering credibility even if your calls are great.

If you've been around for 15-20 years and all the coaches know you, appearance doesn't matter nearly as much....if at all. They made their judgement of you years ago.

If you're going to camp, you're likely trying to move up....to levels where you'll encounter new coaches and new players. The clinician is teaching one of the facets of moving up.

Again, you may ask why?

They're trying to give the campers the tools to make a quality call. Quality calls will not come with reliability from the wrong positions. From the wrong position, it will often turn into a guess, rather than a quality call....with a much higher probability of being wrong (or at least a poor choice of calls). So, the first thing to do is get the official in the correct spot to be able to see the play. Only then can you tell if a poor quality call is from poor judgement or from being out of position.

Again, believability. If you appear to be struggling to get down the floor, how believable will you be? If you appear to get down the floor with ease, what do you think will be the difference? If you appear to be walking down the floor versus trotting, even if your speed is the same, you make be perceived as lazy or not interested.

Even though I didn't have any questions at all & was mainly talking about the personalities (ie: the differnent things each clinician were looking for in campers) thanks for breaking my post down for me. Much appreciated :confused:

I thought it was 4 hours for "those" meds . . .

Now that would explain a few things, wouldn't it!!:mad:

Why the attitude?

My points were not so much targeted at you but at others who may read it who may have yet to experienced such a camp and may not understand what you understood. I meet many officials that think their ability to tell a block from a charge is all that matters.

No problems here, just seemed as though you were breaking down my thoughts for me. I'm visined up now!


:) I tend to call those people referees (anybody can blow a whistle & ref a game, it takes a lil' more to officiate a ballgame).

Fwiw, Camron, I though that you made some excellent points. I agreed completely with your take.

Of course, whatinthehell do I know?:D

This story reminds me of my camp experience from two summers ago. The camp was being held at LSUS and we were calling a 3 man game that got pretty out of hand. I called 2 obvious intentional fouls when the camp director takes it upon himself to blow a whistle and stop the game. He walked out onto the court and told me that I could not call any more fouls the rest of the game. I was already tired and aggravated we were in triple OT and he comes at me with this. I could not help but laugh in his face and continue calling MY game. He tried to get it where I could not call any more games for his camp but thankfully the Assignment Secretary took up for me. People these days, I tell you.

I take it this was NOT a referee training camp...but merely a player's camp that refs were hired to work.

The first day of this player camp was an officials camp but then of course they just needed officials to work the basketball camp.

And then there are some that think this ability doesn't matter at all -- it's all politics, call what I want, not what the rules book says, etc.

Not much! :D

Gotta keep them coaches happy.......:D

You also cannot apply a college concept at a HS game.

Peace

What camp was this at? i was at a camp the same weekend & this sounds very familiar to an incident i saw this weekend.