The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 08:27am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
2. Once players shove each other, the game is out of control.
3. Never believe that you did all you could do to stop a fight. You could always have done more.
Imo both of those points are utter nonsense.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 08:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
3. Never believe that you did all you could do to stop a fight. You could always have done more.
That's really not true for every situation. Sometimes, you can't see them coming and other times, you can see it happening, but it's too late or too heated.

Like the line in Good Will Hunting, when a fight does break out, "it's not your fault."
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 08:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 377
Jurrasic,

You and your assignor are watching the tape of a game you worked and the players in the game start to push each other. Could you look your assignor in the eye and say that you had everything under control?

Number 3 was a sweeping generalization. Forgive me. I should have said that you could USUALLY have done something different to prevent a fight.
__________________
Luther
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 09:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio, cincinnati
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Like the line in Good Will Hunting, when a fight does break out, "it's not your fault."
I disagree -and I have had a fight break out on my court that seemd to come out of nowhere. but upon reviewing the tape there were obvious signs of it - the little chips on people going through the lane - the chicken wings in the post - a little push here or a shove there - that if addressed verbally or with a whistle could have kept things in line.
Granted there may be that immediate blow up from one spectacular incident that just happened which is the exception not the rule.

But as an observer told me this year and I believe it was from another NBA official at Joe Derosa's Camp "If a fight Breaks out on your court it is your fault".
When the film gets to the assignor and the conference people who and what are they going to be looking at - the way the officials handled the game what could they have done to prevent this.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 09:21am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
Jurrasic,

You and your assignor are watching the tape of a game you worked and the players in the game start to push each other. Could you look your assignor in the eye and say that you had everything under control?
I could look anyone in the eye under those circumstances and say "I had control of the game up to that point". I could also look 'em in the eye and say "I also maintained control of the game after that point". If I took care of the situation properly, then at no time was the game ever out of control.

Players starting to push each other are not necessarily the fault of an official. Sh!t simply happens sometimes- out of nowhere. I don't think that you can ever make a blanket statement blaming the officials for losing control just because a player happened to push another player.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 09:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 504
I disagree that once players shove each other the game is out of control. There are couple of players out of control, but dealing with them and talking to the teams may very well result in a good game from that point forward.

I also got the impression that the evaluator berated the OP on the floor. If that is not the case, then the poster is being overly sensitive.

However, If that is the case, IMO, that was uncalled for. Maybe something needed to be said to get their attention or get them refocused. Sage advice at that point was certainly needed and probably would have been welcomed. In the privacy of the tape room if there was something obvious the officials missed or screwed up...that is the appropriate time to dress them down. Doing so in public is unprofessional. For me, I couldn't care less if a clinician is the greatest official to ever put on a striped shirt...he should still conduct himself professionally when working at a camp. I have seen evaluators at camps rip an official a new arse hole in front of everyone...including spectators and players. I often wonder how they would feel if they were the one being humiliated or, if it has happened to them, if they remember how they felt during those moments. I also wonder if the target when that is happening is not simply hearing "Blah, blah, blah, blah"?
__________________
I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 09:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 21
Thank you all for your advice. You have given me greater insight into the situation and how to handle it correctly.

Space limited my description of the event, but it was evident, as Zebraman detected, I was and still am angry about the actions of the observer. Due to space, I did not mention that we have had a run in previously so we have a history. But, reading the comments of all board members, maybe the observer has a point.

For Zebraman: the camp was an instructional not a formal tryout for new assignments. There is no tape of the games. I am sure the observer would have a different story, but that is in his nature. Every other observer and clinician I have worked with has been supportive and educational; they would not yell at a student, “It’s all your fault!!!!” Hey, I was the guy who called the off-ball foul that started the whole deal! In fact, I was angry that he picked on me. Now I realize that at least he was talking to me! He was angry at everyone that the game on HIS court got out of control. But to his credit, he did spend 3 min talking to me after the event, trying to teach me to take this attitude into every game; this is MY game and it will be played the way I was taught is correct.

For OHBBREF: while we were watching the first half, I was reviewing procedures with my partners. The game seemed to be a normal game, although the teams had a hard time scoring. As a camp game, with 2 others on either side, it was hardly a normal situation. But, instead of talking amongst ourselves about the game getting rougher once we noticed it, we should have found the time to talk to the coaches. Good point.

For SNEngman. As above, it was a learning camp, focusing on 3 man mechanics which is slowly entering our area. I have worked 12 yrs in the Midwest and east coast. Last year I did large school JV, small school varsity and JUCO ball. My partners were 2- and 4- yrs. The evaluator was the assignor for an adjoining school league. The evaluator was an experienced DI referee. Having learnt an important lesson, I will seriously consider going back to that camp next year – with a different attitude.
Your final advice will be followed – it is very good advice. No one can misquote you if don’t say anything.

For Irpalmer3: #5 and #6. Obviously, we (all 3 of the crew) were too busy focused on where we stand and where we look to see the overall degree of deterioration of the game. We were focused on US not them.

Thank you all for helping. You have given at least me, a better insight into these events, and more importantly, how I can use this experience to officiate to a higher standard.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 09:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 21
For LarryS: Your assumption is correct, the evaluator berated me on the floor. That is a source of my anger. Since I teach (Professor of Medicine) that is unprofessional behavior from any teacher. In the moment, I had to work hard not to hear only, “Blah, blah, etc.”
Your final thought is most appropriate, “I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you!” When I run into him at my next camp in July, I will probably pull him over and thank him for his lesson, but critique him on his methods.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 10:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF
I disagree -and I have had a fight break out on my court that seemd to come out of nowhere. but upon reviewing the tape there were obvious signs of it - the little chips on people going through the lane - the chicken wings in the post - a little push here or a shove there - that if addressed verbally or with a whistle could have kept things in line.
Granted there may be that immediate blow up from one spectacular incident that just happened which is the exception not the rule.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda is great, but there's a big difference between being in the game and watching it on tape afterwards. Once you know that a fight occurred, you look at everything that came prior in a different light.

Yes, a more experienced official may notice what's going on and may address it, but that's no guarantee that a fight still won't break out. If it did, then you would never see a fight in a major conference D-I or NBA game.

Quote:
But as an observer told me this year and I believe it was from another NBA official at Joe Derosa's Camp "If a fight Breaks out on your court it is your fault".
With all due respect to this NBA official, that's total bull. Unless I throw a punch, I'm not at fault for a fight, EVEN IF the warning signs are crystal clear and I ignore them.

Quote:
When the film gets to the assignor and the conference people who and what are they going to be looking at - the way the officials handled the game what could they have done to prevent this.
They SHOULD be looking at how my crew handled the fight. If my crew does that well, but the conference wants to fire us because a fight happened, I'd willingly resign.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 10:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by refprof
When I run into him at my next camp in July, I will probably pull him over and thank him for his lesson, but critique him on his methods.
I strongly recommend not doing this. His methods do sound flawed, but I think a better venue for that discussion would be the camp director, after you can process your anger. This guy doesn't sound like he'd be a good camper -- willing to listen and learn from anyone. If you (an underling in his mind) try to talk to him about his work, he'll just treat you worse next time. At least, I'd guess this to be the case.

The approach to the camp director is to say, "I think I could have learned more, and the others would have too, if he'd been less confrontational and less accusatory in his approach. I am frankly considering not coming to this camp again if he continues to be a clinician. I just don't learn well in this environment."

If you can give this feedback in a business-like manner without a lot of heat, I think the camp director might seriously consider it. Unless he's the one that likes things that way, as some do. In which case, your best approach, for your own good, would be to simply not go back. Abuse is not a valid teaching technique.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 10:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by refprof
For LarryS: Your assumption is correct, the evaluator berated me on the floor. That is a source of my anger. Since I teach (Professor of Medicine) that is unprofessional behavior from any teacher. In the moment, I had to work hard not to hear only, “Blah, blah, etc.”
Your final thought is most appropriate, “I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you!” When I run into him at my next camp in July, I will probably pull him over and thank him for his lesson, but critique him on his methods.
Prof - I have to agree that the critique probably would have been better had it come after the game. No good ever comes from critiquing refs publicly - especially if there is still more of the game to complete. That said, at your next camp, it probably woul be best not to say anything. Critiquing his techniques before he critiques you may result in a bad situation for you.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 10:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
The approach to the camp director is to say, "I think I could have learned more, and the others would have too, if he'd been less confrontational and less accusatory in his approach. I am frankly considering not coming to this camp again if he continues to be a clinician. I just don't learn well in this environment."
Wow.

If you value your relationship with this director then I would suggest you not do this.

If you must just tell him you don't get along well with that observer and ask to not have him on your games. He may or may not be able to accomodate you. Don't make a big deal of it.

Of course, if you don't care then it doesn't matter what you say or do. But I suspect you do care or you wouldn't have come here to discuss.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 11:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Wow.

If you value your relationship with this director then I would suggest you not do this.

If you must just tell him you don't get along well with that observer and ask to not have him on your games. He may or may not be able to accomodate you. Don't make a big deal of it.

Of course, if you don't care then it doesn't matter what you say or do. But I suspect you do care or you wouldn't have come here to discuss.
Hmmm...

I suppose that depends on who the director is and what the relationship is. I see your point, though. The camps I go to aren't as high a level as the ones you go to, and generally there is a personal relationship between everyone in the camp, and that relationship continues outside of camp. This kind of abuse would be a huge knife in that setting, and the director would want to know about it asap.

I've been to a couple of camps where I suppose that wouldn't be the case and what you're saying makes more sense. But I couldn't handle the abuse and I have chosen not to work up to that level.

So refprof, you'd better take what I say with a grain of salt. It's going to depend on the situation how you approach coping with this kind of abuse.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 11:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio, cincinnati
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Yes, a more experienced official may notice what's going on and may address it, but that's no guarantee that a fight still won't break out. If it did, then you would never see a fight in a major conference D-I or NBA game.
I agree there are no guarantee's I am speaking in Generalities- but it is better to be pro-active than re-active.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
With all due respect to this NBA official, that's total bull. Unless I throw a punch, I'm not at fault for a fight, EVEN IF the warning signs are crystal clear and I ignore them.
I think the statement is meant to mean that as LrPalmer said again in generalities - there was probably something you could have done better to prevent it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
They SHOULD be looking at how my crew handled the fight. If my crew does that well, but the conference wants to fire us because a fight happened, I'd willingly resign.
I am sure they are looking at that also - I do not think anyone is looking to fire you - they will however try to see if there was something you might have been able to do better and bring it to your attention.

There will always be the punches thrown because somebody said "Yo MAMA wears army boots" or a hard foul that truely came out of nowhere.
but In my experience in most instances of fighting or even some cases of almost fights might have been prevented had the officials dealt with things earlier in the game.
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 12, 2007, 01:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Hmmm...

I suppose that depends on who the director is and what the relationship is. I see your point, though. The camps I go to aren't as high a level as the ones you go to, and generally there is a personal relationship between everyone in the camp, and that relationship continues outside of camp. This kind of abuse would be a huge knife in that setting, and the director would want to know about it asap.

I've been to a couple of camps where I suppose that wouldn't be the case and what you're saying makes more sense. But I couldn't handle the abuse and I have chosen not to work up to that level.

So refprof, you'd better take what I say with a grain of salt. It's going to depend on the situation how you approach coping with this kind of abuse.
I also agree with Dan on this. I would not say anything to the tournament director about any clinician unless I was approached personally. Even then I would be very guarded. You are at a camp to learn, not to tell on the clinicians. Now if you are asked in a survey about the camp and it is anonymous then that might be OK. The bottom line is the tournament director hired the people for a reason. If you are at a camp to learn and people are making decisions about you based on the camp, I would stay away from that kind of interaction. Even if you do not like it I feel it would not be right to complain. Work your games, listen to the clinician and move on.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Evaluation Help PIAA REF Basketball 8 Fri Dec 02, 2005 08:26pm
My first formal evaluation rainmaker Basketball 14 Tue Dec 23, 2003 09:55am
Evaluation of Officials DownTownTonyBrown Basketball 2 Wed Oct 29, 2003 08:10pm
First Evaluation Mike Burns Basketball 16 Wed Feb 19, 2003 03:11pm
What Is Considered A Good Camp Evaluation? Love2ref4Ever Basketball 8 Fri Aug 31, 2001 10:54pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1