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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 07:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
A wise man once said, "It is better for a man to remain silent, and have people think he is a fool, than for that man to open his mouth and remove all doubt." Congratulations - you have removed any doubt.

C'mon, quit drinking that Kool-Aid that coaches and players are feeding you, Old School. You have just admitted you would base you calls or no-calls on what you, or other people feel is "safe", vs. actually using the rules. That's too bad.

If you are an official, it is officials like you that give the rest of us bad names. Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

M&M:

That is cold.

MTD, Sr.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
That's right there in the rules! Let me get this right, I am incompetent because I use safety as a guideline to make a decision. Shame on me for acting like a human being and using such realistic factors as safety to make my decision.
Next thing you know, Old School will be telling us he makes the teams use foam balls because someone could jam their finger trying to block a shot. But then again, since he won't allow players to play defense there won't be any attempts to block a shot.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 09:23am
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I will step up and admit...as I said early in this discussion...I would have called a block. This is, of course, assuming I was the new Trail...I would not have made the call from the apparent position of the new Lead (I say apparent judging from his position and direction of movement when the camera gets to him).

I will also admit I would have kicked the call. The replay clearly shows that. I will not, however, attempt to justify my erroneous decision...like some here are trying to do (read OS). If the coach complains I would just tell him that based on my assessment of the action it was the correct call.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 10:19am
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Old School, it must be nice to post in complete anonymity. Maybe it's time to create your public file, let everyone here know where you are from(maybe insert a picture). As a new official, I come here to this forum to learn as much as I can. Your posts here are not helpful at all. If you are posting solely just to agitate and fulfill your warped sense of humor, might I suggest getting a full time job to occupy your time.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref
Your posts here are not helpful at all. If you are posting solely just to agitate and fulfill your warped sense of humor, might I suggest getting a full time job to occupy your time.
Stop reading his posts. If you have judged what he says does not apply, just stop paying that close of attention. It is really easy to do with this guy anyway. You might read occasionally, but just get a laugh. After all, this place is for entertainment purposes.

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref
As a new official, I come here to this forum to learn as much as I can.
Then stay far, far away from Old School. Thankfully, you seem to recognize that already.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 11:10am
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[QUOTE=LarryS]I will step up and admit...as I said early in this discussion...I would have called a block. [QUOTE]

Hey, I would have also looking at it in full speed...that's a pretty close call. Slow-mo shows it is a PC, but man, that would be hard to make that call at full speed...
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hey, I would have also looking at it in full speed...that's a pretty close call. Slow-mo shows it is a PC, but man, that would be hard to make that call at full speed...
I agree that this is a very close call and the expectation to get this call perfect is really not realistic. Having said all that, I tend to error on the side of the calling something on the offense. Not sure I would have seen the player get to the floor first, but this is why we get paid the big bucks after all.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Sorry, JMO, but real officials will know what to look for, will know the correct rule, and will also know how to apply those rules to make the right call. The Old Schools of the world will guess. Real officials won't.

Sorry, that be the way it is.
So, when viewing the video, would you say those are real officials are fake officials? When viewing the video and considering the officials position in the play, do you agree with the call? Remember, they don't have the benefit of replay of this play. Faced with this outcome, do you think the official guess at the call?

When I look at this play, 2 person. I see block. The same call that the official in the video made. Maybe I'm not helping but I'm just being real. 9 times out of ten, officials are coming out of this call with a block. THE VIDEO DON'T LIE!!! Hey, it's the wrong call but we needed replay to verify. When working in the games we don't have the benefit of replay. So you better get in position to make the call, and if not, and you are focred to make the call. What do you call? I gonna call an offensive foul and I'm not sure! I don't think so! I'm going to call a defensive foul and not be sure! What are you gonna call? Are you gonna go with a no call here? You tell me, what are you gonna call here?

My position is simply, if you are not sure, call the obivous. It looked like a block from where I'm standing. Next time, don't force me to call it. God help us if we're going to start using replay after every call we make. The replay is great to show this is really an offensive foul, but it is also equally bad to show that we made a mistake here. If this is the direction we are heading, our profession is going to take a hell of a beating for the days to come. We're simply not going to get every call right. My position on this call is it was a good call. I support the officials here because of their position on the court and the defense force their hands. My position is I would rather you call a block here than a no-call, this is not incidental contact. Faced with those odds, it is better for the defense to go for the ball in this scenario.

Now, don't shoot the messenger. Remember, we live in America and it's okay to have a different opinion, even if that opinion goes against everyone else. I don't agree with the war either.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
So, when viewing the video, would you say those are real officials are fake officials? When viewing the video and considering the officials position in the play, do you agree with the call? Remember, they don't have the benefit of replay of this play. Faced with this outcome, do you think the official guess at the call?

When I look at this play, 2 person. I see block. The same call that the official in the video made. Maybe I'm not helping but I'm just being real. 9 times out of ten, officials are coming out of this call with a block. THE VIDEO DON'T LIE!!! Hey, it's the wrong call but we needed replay to verify. When working in the games we don't have the benefit of replay. So you better get in position to make the call, and if not, and you are focred to make the call. What do you call? I gonna call an offensive foul and I'm not sure! I don't think so! I'm going to call a defensive foul and not be sure! What are you gonna call? Are you gonna go with a no call here? You tell me, what are you gonna call here?
When I saw the video live, I thought PC foul all the way. Why did I come to that conclusion? I have been trained to watch the referee the defense so that plays like this will not just blow up in your face. If you have been doing that these calls can be very easy to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
My position is simply, if you are not sure, call the obivous. It looked like a block from where I'm standing. Next time, don't force me to call it. God help us if we're going to start using replay after every call we make. The replay is great to show this is really an offensive foul, but it is also equally bad to show that we made a mistake here. If this is the direction we are heading, our profession is going to take a hell of a beating for the days to come. We're simply not going to get every call right. My position on this call is it was a good call. I support the officials here because of their position on the court and the defense force their hands. My position is I would rather you call a block here than a no-call, this is not incidental contact. Faced with those odds, it is better for the defense to go for the ball in this scenario.

Now, don't shoot the messenger. Remember, we live in America and it's okay to have a different opinion, even if that opinion goes against everyone else. I don't agree with the war either.
First of all this is not about you being a messenger. You keep saying this stupid line and it has nothing to do with anything. You are not sending a message. You are given an opinion that is based on lunacy. Secondly this is not an "obvious foul." I have admitted it is one of those either/or fouls where some would call this one way and another group would call this play another way. While keeping this in mind, you will not get a pass from me or others when you miss this call. I do not give my self a pass and I will not give others as you move up the ranks. For an official that claims he knows more than just a rec. official, then I would expect more from you (not really but let us dream for a moment). If you really are as good as you say you are you should do a lot better than just calling what is safe. Even when you call things that are save you will make the "obviously" wrong call. This call is not obvious, but it was close to being that way.

Also for the record I do not see anything wrong for who made this call. The New L has likely a cleaner look at this play while the New T is looking through the back of the players and only sees the contact. The New T can see space and see when contact occurred.

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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 12:59pm
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Looking at this video, it seems obvious that the defense is set and in LGP before the offensive player's feet hit the floor, although it is a close call. However, does the offensive player get no allowance for forward motion? Also it seems that upon landing, the offensive player does make an effort to avoid contact. Are forward motion and an attempt to avoid contact only considered in determining if the defense has set a legal screen and opposed to playing the offensive player with the ball?

Last edited by dkmz17; Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 01:17pm.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 01:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
First of all this is not about you being a messenger. You keep saying this stupid line and it has nothing to do with anything. You are not sending a message. You are given an opinion that is based on lunacy.
I think it's based on commen sense. This was an obvious foul that we needed a whistle on. We can not, no-call this contact. That is what I meant by obvious foul. If you're not sure because you are in transistion, what are you gonna call?

Quote:
For an official that claims he knows more than just a rec. official, then I would expect more from you (not really but let us dream for a moment). If you really are as good as you say you are you should do a lot better than just calling what is safe.
#1) I don't claim anything, I leave that up to you. Believe what you want to believe. Along this line of thinking, I believe this forum has a need, a great urge to want to hate others, but what's surpirising is how hard you turn on your own. In any event, if the defense forces me to put air in the whistle, and I'm not in a good position (in transistion) to make a good judgment on the play. If you want to call it the safe call, all I can say is a referee has never been reprimented or suspended for making a safe call. Not making a call, could be devastating to your career.

Last edited by Old School; Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 01:13pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 01:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
Looking at this video, it seems obvious that the defense is set and in LGP before the offensive player's feet hit the floor, although it is a close call. However, does the offensive player get no allowance for forward motion?
No, he doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
Alosm it seems that upon landing, the offensive player does make an effort to avoid contact.
Not relevant here, I'm afraid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
Are forward motion and an attempt to avoid contact only considered in determining if the defense has set a legal screen and opposed to playing the offensive player with the ball?
When the player being screened has the ball, time and distance ("forward motion") are not relevant. Again, neither is the attempt to avoid contact; only the severity and responsibility for contact is relevant here.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 01:22pm
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Time and distance are irrelevant for an offensive player in control such as in this video. On the other hand, if the offensive player did not have the ball in the video, then the foul would have been on the defense, correct? Going further, what would the correct call be if the offensive player had touched but fumbled the ball and not had control when the contact was made?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 01:39pm
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As I looked at this in real time, my first reaction was "block." After reading the thread, I can understand the PC foul call. I do have a question.

A1 lands with his left foot between the feet of B1 (A1's left foot near B1's right foot). A1 turns, weight shifting forward over his left foot and starts the dribble at the same time making contact with B1, not moving the left foot. Because the foot is between the defender's feet, would this be considered not allowing the offensive player to land, even though contact was not made on the actual landing?
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