<A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=basketball&page=gd_nocall"><b>T he Great Debate: ‘No-Call’ It?</b></a>

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First, I am not compelled to make a call just because there was contact and two went to the floor. But for some strange quirk of fate.... Who has the primary call? and where was the ball going to or away from? If you have to stretch too far then you lose credability. The danger with the no call is that you will have to keep your eyes closely on the two involved so there is no retalliation, but the no call is the best, I cant advocate making it up. If it's close, a travel call might work but other than that theyre both at fault.

I know officials who will always call this on the offense. But, for me, it's a no call if I didn't see the whole play. Hopefully, I won't put myself in that position.

I think that if you really don't have a clue you have to No-Call it. You can say to a coach, "I'm sorry, I didn't see the whole play." This will gain you more respect that trying to make something up.

You CAN NOT call what you do not see.
 

It is a terrible feeling, you witness a play and your mind is NOT sorting it out the same way your eyes "saw" it.

If you do not have a whistle (and enough information in your brain to make a call) instantaneously, or damn near that quick, you gotta let it go.

This reminds me of the thread several days ago where the posting official "heard a slap." You CAN NOT make the call.

I have a simple motto:

See it, call it, or leave it.


IF I have the game play situation (GPS) like the one that started this thread, I am going to work that much harder to "witness" and process it the next time, so I can make the call.

This is unfortunately a "No Call."

Agreed
 

you're the expert on no calls, right willie:)

Re: You CAN NOT call what you do not see.
 

Unfortunately, the other 2 "Bench" Refs or worse, the other 50 - 5000 "stands" refs saw something and they want the whistle. Being a Rook, No calls where I know something happened but just didnt see it makes me feel bad. The speed of the game can overtake your ability to process what is going on both near and off ball. The flip side...I feel like I have to see the advantage gained before I can pop the whistle. Kids (especially the grade school variety) can do the unexpected, creating at times violent, incidental contact. And that is what I have found to be one of many eye opening things regarding what its going to take to be successful.

Its the time when Johnny's dad is in the front row yelling for "tripping" after Johnny simply loses his footing while running near a defender off ball and all you see is Johnny flying thru the air followed by a 18 foot slide accross the floor...you see that...you know Johnny drug his nose on the tile floor for ten feet but you have NO idea how. Almost all of us No call there and we would be right but what if Johnny was assited in his effort by the defender to slide as far as possible on his schnoz accross the floor? We're all still a No Call. The eye opener for me is the crowd reaction and keeping my cool by realizing that I have 2 eyes and they have 691 and a half.

Any comments on cooling a crowd or should I keep it to puking on the front row's shoes?

We'll review "Wisdom from the stands, "tripping" and staring at Johnny's dad's pants later.

Tripping....which page is that on again? Yes Mr. Expert, Johnny tripped....over his own left foot.

Larks

Brad, I have not seen you in about three years since Coast to Coast. Good to hear your still out there! I have always been taught that when a collision occurs you have to have a whistle. The players and coaches cannot stand when there is a no call on a collision. They immediately begin to lose respect for the officials. If this play happened in my primary and I had no look I would wait for my partners to hopefully chime in and save me. If this did not happen I would simply come in late with a guess. Yes, a guess. I hate to say that but that's what I would do. I would probably guess charge.

If your supervisor says the following . . . .
 

I can appreciate the points of view so far. Now let me throw another wrinkle into it.

What if you work in a conference where the philosophy is more one sided?

That is, what if the supervisor says "Benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. Call a player control foul.",

or

"Benefit of the doubt goes to the offense. Call a block."

There is this philosophy out there, and until there is strong enough justification for one or the other, there will probably continue to be inconsistency.

Thus, can anyone obliterate the aforementioned positions that favor the no-call, and instead, replace it with VERY strong justification for either the block or charge?

Put another way, based on the existing Case Book plays (NFHS) and Approved Rulings (NCAA), do you think that there is already some basis for placing the greater burden on the player in ball control?

I personally subscribe to the latter, but would like to see if others have similar beliefs?

No call for me. I'm not going to guess. Hopefully my partner can help me out.

If i don't see the complete play I"no call"it and take the heat which I deserve for being out of position.
Pistol

If you don't see t he play, you didn't see the play. You can't make a call based on what you thought you saw. I say a no call. Then tell the coach that it was the R's call.:)

I have to agree with the majority, although it's unlikely that a lead would have absoutely no idea of what happened. If your supervisor tells you that the defense should get the benefit of the doubt and you're 90% sure that you saw a charge, call it that way. You'd be right 9 times out of 10. In the no-call situation you're probably going to be wrong 9 of 10.

In basketball, crashes that we see and truly have no foul on occur all the time. (The phantom hesalloverim foul.) Unless I see the entire play, I'm not calling something where I don't know who the offender is.

Now, as to the "benefit of the doubt" policy. I would apply something like that to a crash that you see; know that someone fouled, but can't tell who.

Didn't get a good look so no call.

BTW, if I didn't get a good look how do we know B3 didn't
flop afterall?

I would also no-call this situation. If I don't see the play then I don't guess.
I'll take the heat for not watching my primary if it in fact occured there and trust my partners are doing the same.

Like Eli and Jim i would have to have a call in this situation. Every instructor at every camp I have attended (10 in 4 states from VA to TX) has told me that you must have a whistle in that situation, even like Eli said, if "you have to guess."

I also happen to work in an athletic department at a small university and have the good fortune of having an office across the hall from the Men's Basketball coach. Over the course of numerous conversations he has made it abundently clear that to have a "no call" in that situation is unacceptable to him as a coach. He has said,

"even if the official is wrong, i want to have a whistle in that situation. a no call in that situation could lead to retaliatory actions later." -- if not an exact quote, it's pretty close

Just wanted to throw in my two-cents and add the persceptive from one coach.

jake

If I didn't see it, how can I make a call. If I was zoned out and missed it, then I have to swallow my whistle and take my medicine from the howler monkey's.

Having said that, I make it a point in every pregame to cover collisions. If someone hits the floor, someone on my crew better damn well know how he/she got there. This is not a time for us to drop the ball, this is how fights start.


Most coaches will tell you they don't care if the call goes against them, they just want a call... until it goes against them. If I can't defend it, I am not going to call it.

I was there last Friday night, A1 and B1 collide while hustling to get a loose ball. The good news, I WAS IN POSITION to make the correct call.

Team B (backcourt) makes a sloppy, lazy pass and A1 hustles into the area as he makes an effort to steal. From my angle as the trail, I saw A1 create the contact after B1 gained control of the ball.

Tweet! (Closed Fist, White, 32, 'NFHS signal only' Pushing No verbalization of the foul, as per the guidance of the wiley veterans here :))

Team A (Home team) Coach Barked out, "How can you call that?"

"Coach, He (opponent) had the ball and your guy ran into him."

"I do not agree. It is a loose ball and the other guy created the contact."

"Coach, we had different angles. I called what I saw."

Coach turns to his player (Who was just whistled for the foul), "Good hustle Johnny. Maybe we'll get the call next time."

No Call
 

This is a tough one for me because if I didn't see the play and someone went down--it's a no call for me-- however, I always beat myself up for not seeing the contact or for no being in the right position to see the contact.

I would have to agree with the other scholars who say no call... I think many of us look go back in our officiating carrers and shudder at a "guess call" we made that we would love to have back.

If you did not see a play I would think that taking your lump from a coach and moving on is less severe than guessing and having them on you the whole game.

But I think the biggest reason against guessing is the use of video, and ESPN, officials mistakes are often sent around the world long before the supervisor hears about it, and if it is an obvious guess you could be done depending on the price of the guess.

Great Debate
 

As this issue goes, I would have a whistle. There are few occassions for no-calls in games on block/charges. One that comes to mind, is where defensive player starts to fall back or where offensive player brushes by defensive player and in both of these situations there is little or no contact at all on the play, these are no-calls. I think all collisions deserve a whistle. Even if you get it wrong. I hope you don't. Crashes in my mind are not tough to call if your in positions and refereeing the defense. Remember the tough 50/50 crashes and talk about them with your crew, because if there is another 50/50 crash at the other end we want to "balance the floor."

I would hate to have to guess on a call due to my lack of hustle, being out of position, not refereeing the defense, or not having a clear lane of vision on the play; but I would for sure have a whistle and come up with something if I put myself in that situation....for sure.

When players go to the floor and we don't have a whistle it casts a doubt on our credibility and judgment, we must have a whistle!!!!

Re: Great Debate
 

What exactly do you mean by "balance the floor"?:confused:

Re: Great Debate
 

No, we don't have to have a whistle! As you said yourself, there can be quite a bit of contact in a basketball game which looks bad but is not a foul. If no official saw the whole play, there would be no way to tell if the contact was legal/illegal and who initated it.

Do you base your other calls on expectations from the crowd? If no one sees where the shooter's foot is, and the entire arena signals "three," do you award three points? Do you call travelling because A1's drive to the basket "looks funny?" I sure as hell hope not!

Everything being equal. I might have a no call. I also would not rule out the game situation. i.e. has it been a rough game and you want to clean it up, or one team is winning by 20 mid way in 2nd half, or one of the players is a problem player, or 1st half vs 2nd half.

Re: Re: Great Debate
 

What exactly do you mean by "balance the floor"?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
i think what bbarnaky means is if you have a tough 50/50 play on one end of the court where you call a charge, then if you have a tough 50/50 play on the other end a charge should be called(not an obvious block). it keeps consistency in the game. on a further note, if an official obviously misses a call "balancing the floor" should not be considered when the same play occurs on the other end(just chalk it up as a miss).

What is a 50/50 call?

It's either a block or a PC, not 50% one and 50% the other.

Referee the defense and you won't have to make a call at one end based on what you called at the other end.

Re: Re: Re: Great Debate
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee What exactly do you mean by "balance the floor"?:confused:

Quote:

Originally posted by crew i think what bbarnaky means is if you have a tough 50/50 play on one end of the court where you call a charge, then if you have a tough 50/50 play on the other end a charge should be called(not an obvious block). it keeps consistency in the game. on a further note, if an official obviously misses a call "balancing the floor" should not be considered when the same play occurs on the other end(just chalk it up as a miss).

crew - I cannot agree with the philosophy that calling a block/charge one way on one end of the court should influence how you call one on the other side of the court - or even how you would make the call if it happened next on the same side of the court.

No two plays are 100.0000000000000...% identical. You call each play according to how you see it - period. If it looked similar to a play on the other end but you made the call the other way because that was the correct call for that play, then you are doing your job properly.

"Consistency", as you call it, is not having one call influence the next. It's applying the same principles of decision - making evenly throughout the game from start to finish.

Remember - your job (believe it or not) is to make sure the best team wins. I've explained this philosophy before.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Debate
 

Mark -- Yes, you have but it's been awhile. I think itmight benefit everyone ify ou would explain it again -- Maybe give it a new thread!?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Debate
 

[


crew - I cannot agree with the philosophy that calling a block/charge one way on one end of the court should influence how you call one on the other side of the court - or even how you would make the call if it happened next on the same side of the court.

No two plays are 100.0000000000000...% identical. You call each play according to how you see it - period. If it looked similar to a play on the other end but you made the call the other way because that was the correct call for that play, then you are doing your job properly.[/QUOTE]
i agree that no 2 plays are 100% identical. what i am saying is that if a block/charge on one end is very close/tough(meaning it is difficult to decide if the D was legal or illegal) and on the other end another block/charge play occurs that is tough the same call should be made. i am not saying that if the play was tough at one end and obvious at the other to make the same call.

Quote:

"Consistency", as you call it, is not having one call influence the next. It's applying the same principles of decision - making evenly throughout the game from start to finish.

not all plays are easy to call and have 100% confidence that you made the correct call. therefor play memorization is a tool that can help decide the call. coaches, supervisors, fans, and officials want to have consistency on the court to keep the playing field level.

Quote:

Remember - your job (believe it or not) is to make sure the best team wins. I've explained this philosophy before.

my job is not to make sure the best team win, my job is to make the playing court fair/even because the best team does not always win. if the best team always won why do we need tournaments or even a season, we would just award the championship trophy to duke/L.A. right now. read this last sentence with a grain of salt.(it is kinda sarcastic)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Debate
 

MARK!!!!!! Get Busy and Fill Him In, QUICK!!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Debate
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crew

Quote:

my job is not to make sure the best team wins, my job is to make the playing court fair/even because the best team does not always win.

Believe it or not, I agree completely with Tony on this one. Call it fair for both teams, and be unconcerned with which team is "better". Sometimes a team just gets lucky, or they get hot, or everybody on the better team has a bad night at the same time (remember the Nebraska defense vs. Colorado?).

Forget about who's "better" and call a fair game.

Chuck

If you have a blarge-type call at A's basket, and you know it's a PC, you should call the PC. When B goes down the floor, and you have another blarge at B's basket, it may be tough, but if you know it is a block, call the block on A.

BTW, I believe the "better team" philosophy does not refer to the favorite/underdog, it refers to the fact that the team which plays better for 24/32/40/48 minutes (or more, if you have [shudders] o***time) should be the one that wins.

"Better team wins" The better team for this game will win if we call a good, fair game. the classic case is when you have a better team (team A) plays good sound ball and team B plays a rough illegal game i.e. giving the team B an advantage. If we don't take care of business then the better team this game may not win.

The Great Debate
 

I guess there is no such thing as a tough 50/50 block charge play. Watch tape you'll see that not every block charge play is easy to call. Some are very clear, defender slides over or is late getting there. Others, offensive player clearly blows the defender over with chest to chest contact/blows. Watch tape!!!

As far as balance the floor goes, I do not believe it make up calls. Balance the floor is terminology in the officiating world, that means if we're calling it one way here, call it that same way at the other end. Same thing as a word called consistency. If we have a block at this end, an official must remember this and if the opportunity arises get a block at the other end. Obviously, not every play is identical. If it were, the game would be easy to officiate. However, once an official sees enough plays in his lifetime, one's judgment should get better and understand what tough 50/50 block/charge plays are all about as it relates to the grand scheme of a particular game.

Lastly, I do not base my calls of the what the fans think. I don't referee to the crowd. Also, I am there as the judge and jury of a game and to apply the rules and philosophies as evenly as possible. The best team doesn't always win. One can learn this by playing sports themselves. If this were the case, why even play the games, just hand the super bowl trophy to the best team that writers and fans think it should be. There is something called an upset in sports. (see NCAA tournament in March and NBA playoffs in May/June). Our job is not to make sure the best team wins, but to give both teams the opportunity to win by being in good position to make quality calls and to keep the integrity of the game intact.

I have been taught thru my 4 years that the only other best friends out there other than your partners is/are a late or no whistle. However, you had better be 110% sure when you put a whistle on it that you: 1) Clearly saw it and 2) Can clearly explain it.

The Great Debate
 

A supervisor the other day at a college tournament I was officiating at was clear in his evaluation of the game of a crew I was watching, that he wants whistles on all crashes as it relates to block/charge plays to the basket. Plus, I believe coaches are the ones who ask supervisors about these plays and wish some kind of decision was made either way , block or charge.

Initial Legal Guarding Position (ILGP) established? As it happened at the speed that I am assuming it did would this be one of the primary factors either you or your partners are looking for?

After reading all these posts, most from officials with far more experience than I, it is crystal clear that most assignors want a call on every collision. It also seems clear that very few of us are comfortable blowing whistles on plays that we didn't see from start to finish. It seems to me that what the assignors are saying is that they are looking for officials who are rarely out of position, referee the defense, and are consistant when they have to blow the whistle. So, the answer to this question is bust your butt to get into position, referee the defense, and be consistant.

[Edited by Tom Cook on Jan 3rd, 2002 at 06:41 PM]

The Great Debate
 

TomCook I totally, totally agree with your last post!!! Very good precise explanation to the situation. Bust your butt, be in position at all times and REFEREE THE DEFENSE!!

Re: The Great Debate
 

tom, bbarn,
i concur.

Nuff Said!!!

Re: The Great Debate
 

Exactly correct. This is similar to my philosophy on how to make sure I get all my correctable error situations correct. . . DON'T MAKE ANY CORRECTABLE ERRORS. :)

Chuck

Even better would be "don't make any errors, no matter the type." :)

(Sorry; I forgot the requisite smiley.)

[Edited by Mark Dexter on Jan 4th, 2002 at 12:18 PM]

True, but that's not really realistic. So my point was just to make sure that we pay attention at those crucial points (who's the FT shooter? how many shots?, etc.) so that we never have to invoke 2-10.

Chuck

It's ok, Mark, b/c even without the smiley, your statement is true. It's what most of us would love to be able to do. If I could ref the perfect game, well, I wouldn't be complaining about my schedule, that's for sure :) But I'm just human, so I eliminate the correctable errors from my game and hope not too many people notice the non-correctable ones.

Chuck