what would you do?
 

Fed rules - 2 man crew.
Team A - 26 Team B - 22
1:18 second quarter
Team A inbounding under their basket atble side, ball at the disposal of A1, A3 cuts from oppostie through the lane and uses a forearm to clear out the defender B3 - whistle from the trail.
This foul puts the team B in the bonus.
Crew calls as team control foul and then inbounds the ball.
With the ball in the back court - official realizes error and blows the whistle killing the play and awards bonus to team B - and adds 4 seconsd of time to the game clock.
Other than adding time which was completely wrong,

Would you have corrected the error upon realization?

Of course. Why wouldn't you- under any circumstances?:confused:

Yes.

(Easiest question on here in a while.)

I would correct the error, but would not put time back up.

In a post game discussion several officials stated they would not have initiated
the correction of the error they would have let it come from the table??
Their thought process (though I believe flawed or arrogant) was not to admit to an error if nobody else knew about it it could lead to problems with the coaches later?

Well, with any luck I'll never have have to work with clowns like that. The day that I worry about having problems with coaches over <b>any</b> call that I make is the day I change my name to "Old School".

Get the play right.

Do these guys work for the Bush administration??? :eek:

Worked as a clinician at a HS camp this weekend...had a play where A2 steals ball and is 6-7 feet in front of everyone as he lays it in. Second wave of guys coming down court - B3 shoves A3 to the floor to get into rebounding position in case the rebound misses. Center official calls the pushing foul, counts the basket, and then proceeds to award the shooter one free throw! As clinicians, we were not supposed to insert ourselves into the game, so I just watched to see what would happen...they shoot the one shot, Coach B going nuts, T coach B, shoot two more free throws...yikes! Conversation after the game...BOTH partners admitted that they KNEW that C was wrong, but they said nothing because they didn't want anyone to know they had blown it...that worked well for them...there was some butt-chewing after that little episode.

And rightly so.......for all three of them.

Silly monkeys....

Actually the butt chewing was aimed mostly (mostly, I repeat) at the two partners who just stood there and watched it all go FUBAR...I'm thinking of writing a book about it: "How to Ruin a Well-called Game in Under 20 Seconds"

Maybe next time they'll figure out that if <b>one</b> of the crew screws up that badly, then they've <b>all</b> screwed up.

I would like to understand this correctly.

(a). I have knowledge of kicking a rule; but, I should not correct a kicked rule because, I do not want to upset a coach. RIGHT!!!

(b). My partner kicks a rule and we should not discussed this kicked rule. because, we do not want to upset a coach RIGHT!!!!!

Thanks!!! We this approach I will soon be like another individual who visits the forum.

Oh, my ! That's a narrow plank on which to walk, ...not much room to roam.

So everyone involved noticed the problem, yet the guy that was correct was punished. But, then again, he didn't have to go nuts, did he?

The teams pay for the camp, but do they realize there may be officiating problems with the campers? Will they pay again next year ? Will they castigate the camp ?
Were the camping officials better off having been humiliated ? Why couldn't a clinician step in (as an experienced partner could) and brought the crew together to make it right, and then rehash it at a break ?

I dunno, trial by fire is certainly a way to learn, but a few words from a clinician and everyone is happy.

Rocky, I certainly am not judging your part as an observer, but I wonder if a slightly modified philosophy may be more comfortable for the participants.

It seems the thought may be to eliminate officials, rather than to be creating officials. Although, that can work, too !

M&M Guy??????:p

The teams knew that it was a training ground for officials...and these were officials who certainly knew better. They were all three Varsity level officials from their various associations, and those were the people we were told not to step in on. In essence, this was a "certification" type camp - these were people trying to prove that they were qualified to work post-season tournaments. Needless to say, they didn't prove that...

I understand. ;)

They have to deal with the insanity - even though they created it - that is part of the learning process.

The Clinician should not step in - part of the process is how you deal with this sort of stuff on the floor who will step up and be the leader - I didn't see anywhere in this post that they discussed the enforcment at any point? So since there were no leaders here they all deserve the A$$ chewing they got after the game.

Had they discussed it and the call stood there would have been ample oportunity to actually place blame on someone for the whole fiasco. but they were all apart of it and deserving of the consequences.

The another malfunction play of this camp had similar results but was handled better.
With 4:18 to play R steps in to administer free throws to A1 and says 1 + 1 (should have been two shots)
Nobody catches it - shot misses B2 picks of the rebound and goes the length of the floor Just before he slams it home U2 realizes something is amis and blows his whistle - at about the same time U1 realizes the problem also and puts a whistle on it.
B2 gives them an F-bomb and some other verbage relating to their ethics and collective family tree's.

Now, all three officials get together and discuss the error,
they walk out with A1 going to the line to shoot the second of two.
B2 recieves one T and gets to stay in the contest (His tirade truely deserved an ejection under normal circumstances).

The enforcement was done as follows. R1 called the coaches together and eplained the situation
U2 walked over to B2 and explained the situation. At no time was ther a whistle or signal for the technical given it was discussed and enforced.

These guys got to stay to the next round any way.
(At this camp you work four games and are evaluated - the better officials move on to through the tournament with supposedly the best officials working the semis and finals.)

I would correct the error, but not put time back on the clock.

I need a smilie that's giving the finger.

Oh, wait:

[image deleted in advance by mods]

MODS!!!

I demand (DEMAND I TELL YA!) this thread be closed now to preserve forever the intellectual honesty and spiritual beauty it now enjoys!

Speaking of spiritual beauty...did anyone actually expect Sweet Looo to last this long without giving the baseball world the unsmiling finger? He's really doing a great job working on that anger issue of his.

btw...my best Lou story is from the late 70's/early 80's sitting out in the left field box seats in da bronx on a miserable rainy night that found the home team down big in the top of the 8th. A fan had been on Lou all game long "LOU! YOU SUCK!!!" and like that. Finally Lou turns and shouts back "WHY DON'T YOU KISS MY F'ING @SS!"

He got a huge round of applause, and since the stadium was near empty by that time it was heard by all.

Wow...there's no reason to get personal. But since you did - right back at you!!

[another image deleted in advance by mods]

So there!! Phbbbbtttttttt...

Right back at ya....
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/7207/rock.jpg

Ooh, I was able to reply to the thread so it's not locked yet. Maybe they want one last shot of intellectual honesty and spiritual beauty before they lock it for good.

(I've been studiously avoiding the baseball thread because I didn't want to comment on my Cubbies. That would certainly lock that thread for good.)

Anyway, back to the issue at hand - I would prefer the clinician would've stepped in and corrected the mistake, then reamed the officials afterward. I understand the reasoning of letting them do the game, and waiting to critique, but the teams have also spent money to be there, so they have every right to expect the game to be officiated fairly. The teams should also know the officiating situation going in from the organizer - some camps use rec-league refs, some combine the camp with an officials' training camp, some use local HS refs, etc. If the teams know this is also a training camp for officials, they would understand the clinician stepping in and getting the mess straightened out.

Hey, where'd you find rocky's picture?

I'm in the camp of letting the officials handle it w/o clinicians intervening.

The officials are there to learn. They need to learn to deal not only with the basic calls but with situations that they create when they screw up. With it basically blowing up in their face, they will never forget it....and neither will any other official that was paying attention to what resulted.

Sure, it wasn't a perfect outcome for the team. However, they didn't spend their money just to play; they're there to learn too. The same thing can just as easily happen in a regular season game and there would be no one to bail out the refs...no one to intervene and smooth things out. Camp is a place for the teams/coaches to also learn to deal with adverse situations....not just learn how to run plays.

The way it played out, the officials, the coach, and the players all learned something. If the clinicians had fixed the problem, the coach and players would have not had the opportunity to learn something. Now, hopefully, they'll find a more appropriate way to deal with such an error...something better than screaming at the refs. After all, it was a correctable error that could have been addressed by requesting a timeout. And, given that the other two refs knew what it should have been, it very well would have been fixed without incident. (Never mind that the other two refs, knowing a mistake was being made, should have stepped in right away and never let it get to that point.)

It's a lot like raising kids. They learn a lot more from an occassional failing (even a big one) than from someone making sure they succeed.

I don't disagree that's a great way to learn. And I do know having a clinician intervene is an open door to having the coaches think they can ask about every questionable call. Maybe it also depends on the type of camp, and the teams involved, as to how much a clinician inserts themselves into the situation. But there are still plenty of ways the clinician can let the sh!t hit the fan, step in quickly, correct the situation for the players, and still make it known in the meetings afterwards. I'm not saying the clinician should do it for them, but step in and let the officials clean up the mess. It just seems inexcusable that there would be officials with the mind-set of not helping out their partner because it would look bad to admit they blew it. It's also a shame to let the players suffer when there's a way to correct it for them.

The clinician could have stepped in and asked a question. You don't have to correct the problem for them but you could steer them in the right direction in hopes that they will pick it up on their own. This is still training you know. I don't think letting things play out incorrectly really helps them to learn and then chewing them out after the fact does no one any good.

I think you missed a perfect opportunity to teach how to step up and ask a respectable question of your partner/s, and learn how to correct potential problems, dealing with the coaches, etc. As the clinician, I'm going to make them go explain their actions to both coaches. Then step back and see how they handle it.

Now, they are still in the game, still in the hunt to make the list. You let it play out incorrectly and you got 3 devastated officials in your camp who probably won't speak to each other again, have low self esteem, and they know they're not going to get pick up. Not the message you won't to send out in a camp, imho.

Very simple explanation--the Center official watches too much NBA TV. The way that he administered the play is correct under NBA rules.

Almost correct. The shooter -- A2 -- would not have received the free throw. The player who got fouled -- A3, in this case -- would get the chance to complete the 3-point play.

No!!! I desire not to say the name. It's would ruin my month if I did.:)

Oh for God's sake...no one was devastated, no one hates anybody...30 min. after that game was over all 4 of us were sitting in the hospitality room eating fried chicken together and laughing our a$$es off with each other. I could have done this, I could have done that...I did what the camp director asked his clinicians to do - stay out of it and let them handle things. And if you knew me at all (rainmaker can back me up on this) you would know that any chewing out I ever do is extremely light-hearted - I'm just not a yeller.

I can not agree more. If it is near-rookies, I think the clinicians would/should be more involved....teaching interactively. If it is a tryout/certification camp with supposed veterans vying for postseason eligibility, you need officials to make it on thier abilities....all on thier own....with critique after it's done. No on is going to be there to guide them in the games they're trying to qualify for.

Well, no, you're not a yeller, DJ, but I wouldn't say you're light-hearted, either. Or perhaps you've never chewed me out. If that's the case, I hope next time you won't go so easy on me -- I can't take it! I'd rather get the light-hearted chewing.

Whoops. You're correct. Thanks for fixing that.