I don't know but BsktballRef just got the kiss of death here, Mr. D actually agrees with him, doh. Just kidding Mr. D.

Mark,
Never said I didn't agree with this statement.

has anybody ever thooght that andre got the play wrong!

Blasphemy, I say. He must have been right if he's good enough to do that game. No, seriously. I didn't see the play in question, but I did see a replay of a drive and jump shot of Williams' where they called a foul that shocked me. I saw it twice and the camera angle was pretty good, the guy was standing straight up and set and there was very, very slight contact if any and that was because of Williams' followthrough. Another guy swiped at the ball from the side but missed everything. Not sure who he called the foul on, but it looked like a miss to me, which happens.

We agree sometimes. He can't be wrong all the time! :D

Of course he did, if you think he did. :(

[QUOTE]Originally posted by devdog69

Quote:

Originally posted by crew has anybody ever thooght that andre got the play wrong!

Thought of it, but he didn't. It was a good call, and with his experience, if his assignors really didn't want it called, he wouldn't have b/c of the situation. (End of game, let the players decide, etc.) Plus, you can be sure that the officials talked during the TO's to remind each other of what their responsibilities were and to be sure of any contact before making the call.

Quote:

I did see a replay of a drive and jump shot of Williams' where they called a foul that shocked me. I saw it twice and the camera angle was pretty good, the guy was standing straight up and set and there was very, very slight contact if any and that was because of Williams' followthrough. Another guy swiped at the ball from the side but missed everything.

I have to agree that I didn't see much of a foul there. My guess is that from the official's angle, he felt that the contact from behind on the shooter's arm was significant. But I agree that it didn't look like much on replay.

Chuck

So Tony, how long have you been sitting back
letting me fight your battle for you?;)

I saw the play and the replay and wondered if it should have been called. I am second guessing, but we all do it. I also saw the charge (yes I would have to agree with Dick Vitale, and that makes me hurt) that he pointed out was let go, and it was let go. It was near the basket but not under it. My point is that we all miss things and there are differing philosophies.

I will have to take sides with Drake on a couple of things. The NBA has done some serious work to alleviate the roughness of the game, but the NBA was not the only one that had rough games. There used to be a big difference in East Coast vs West Coast ball and a couple of the eastern conferences used to play some pretty physical ball as well. What the NBA did that the other organizations did was define the elements that should be called. While NCAA and NF made it a point of emphasis for some of this, many times the guidelines were not clear. They are getting better at defining things but they should not be POE these guidelines should be listed as part of the rules with the specifics layed out where there is no room for interpretation. Ive seen on this and MCgriffs board many times where prople say yea we do the POE but it gets lost by the way side.
The NBA clearly writes their guidelines and incorporates them into the book with much more clarity than NF. Sometimes they dont get followed but generally they are. It is never hard to figure out when the NBA wants a call. What's interesting is to see how the NBA philosophies and rules make it to the NF level and no one ever figured out that they came from the league.

On the previous play listed I would have to say I would have to see it but if the defense got a great block and is the offense was off balance and gets bumped and goes down, I would be inclined to pass as incidental. If the defemse makes a great block and there is a swat, and there ends up being minor contact, I'll think twice about calling a foul. Why should the defense get penalized for playing great defense?

In general based on my observation, NF officials call more fouls on the defense than on offense, Although there is a lot of contact by the defense, more contact is ruled incidental when it is done by the offense than when it is done by the defense.

I have seen games even the last couple of nights where I had partners bail out the offense. We had a play where 2 bigger players in the middle, basically straight up (hands above head but out about 1-2 feet in front) The defense did not move their feet, they did not move their arms downward, the offense went at them jumped into their arms and the foul called on the defensive player. For what standing there? Clearly they were not 100% vertical but I think they were less at fault than the offensive player.

Offensive player trying to drive in between the defenders when there is no room and its called on the defense.

I am not talking about times when we have to protect the shooter. But there are way too many times when we call things on the defense that should not be called. How many times have we anticipated a call because a player jumped up and we knew there was going to be a foul and it turns out there wasn't or there was only minor contact. Drake is right we have to see the whole play and then exercise our judgement. Sometimes it just isn't a foul.

My concern in my young Rookie career is that I have noticed at the grade school level (3rd - 8th) that I could probably call hand check every other play in addition to the travels, double dribbles, holds and widowmakers that I see. At some point, dont you seriously consider "ADVANTAGE" and make the decision: Advantage gained...TWEET?

What I worry about is the effect of calling the game by the letter to A) the game I'm working, B) my standing with my partner, C) my standing with the league I work for and D) getting the game complete before the next game is scheduled (this is an issue in 3rd - 8th although I dont worry about it nearly as much).

My goal is to move up to Varsity but I also dont want to be known as the guy who calls everything or the guy who turns a basketball game into a chess match. Last week, I went to a game that was being ref'd by a guy I hope to consider a mentor. During the Pre-game (which they allowed me to sit in on) and while we watched the JV game for a few, he elaborated on how they were gonna call the game. This game was what I'll call an inner-city game. To quote my friend: "This game is going to be street ball". "Very little organized basketball so we will tend to let them play or else we could be here all night. For the most part, they called the game as I would have...in other words, I was only surprised by maybe 2 calls. My question is how many of you ADJUST your approach and calls to the specific game?

And finally clarification on hand check...in the NF 2001/2002 POE in the post play section it says "When a defensive player holds, undercuts, displaces by a knee or a forearm in the back, it is a foul. Q: Can a defender, say B3 hold his position and bring his forearm up do help do so. He is not pushing the A3, simply using his forearm to help hold his own ground. Usually, A3 will lean on said forearm to help guage the defender. Comments? I see this a lot and am guilty of it as a rec player.

I guess while I am on this, what about B1 simply touching A1 as A1 dribbles down the floor...no advantage, just touching....comments?

Thanks to all!

Larks (VIT)

drake,
i had to take a break from the beating. glad to see you pick me up when i was down.

No problem.
I'm off the hospital to get bandaged up. Then you can put me back in, coach.:cool:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks

Quote:

During the Pre-game (which they allowed me to sit in on) and while we watched the JV game for a few, he elaborated on how they were gonna call the game. This game was what I'll call an inner-city game. To quote my friend: "This game is going to be street ball". "Very little organized basketball so we will tend to let them play or else we could be here all night. My question is how many of you ADJUST your approach and calls to the specific game?

Here's what Hank Nichols (Nat'l Coordinator of Men's Officials for all divisions of NCAA basketall) wrote in his most recent bulletin sent to all men's officials. It's dated December 7, 2001. He writes, very succinctly:

"Cardinal Rule.

Style of play will not dictate officiating."

By this, he means that we call the handchecks regardless of whether it's streetball, or Ivy League. We enforce the rules and the players adjust to us. If they don't, they have a short night.

Quote:

And finally clarification on hand check...in the NF 2001/2002 POE in the post play section it says "When a defensive player holds, undercuts, displaces by a knee or a forearm in the back, it is a foul. Q: Can a defender, say B3 hold his position and bring his forearm up do help do so. He is not pushing the A3, simply using his forearm to help hold his own ground.

If it's just resting there between the two players, I say "Arms off" or "No forearm". If it stays there, even just resting, it gets a whistle. As soon as the forearm applies ANY pressure, it gets a whistle.

Quote:

what about B1 simply touching A1 as A1 dribbles down the floor...no advantage, just touching

One touch is nothing. Two touches is a verbal "Hands off!". Next touch is a whistle.

Chuck

Chuck, BasketballRef had a similar statement on the g.p.s. 4 posting so I will pretty much reply in the same manner. I did not see the play you are talking about. I think a lot of people are misunderstanding me. As I stated in my original post a foul should be called if the contact is violent even if the ball is blocked first. The play I am referring to is when the contact is not severe after the ball is initially blocked. BasketballRef said the contact was hard down low on the shooter after the block so maybe Andre felt the contact was severe and warranted a foul or maybe he just missed the play. I can assure you Andre shares my feelings on not calling fouls after the ball is initially blocked if the contact is not severe as I have worked with him and been to his camps. Hopefully, I will be able to see this play on ESPN tonight.

By rule, they are the only ones at fault. Think of it like real estate in NYC - you own the land and the air above it up to a certain height. If a 25-story hotel extends a balcony over a 2-story restaurant, there's probably no problem. When Donald Trump buys the 2-story restaurant and wants to turn it into a 40-story building, there will be a problem - and it's on the hotel, not the restaurant.

Maybe this reply will help this subject make the hot topic thread... as usual all of you guys make excellent points. But I think the bottom line boils down to what has been stated earlier, you call the game the way the assignor wants it called... why? because he/she usually gets their marching orders from coaches via phone calls and meetings with the conference president; And if what they want is not adhered to then guess who goes.

A case in point last season in our juco meeting were were told to tighten down the post (boy that sounds familiar)I just happen to be sitting behind two of our more accomplish officlas in the group who were adamat about not doing it because of their status (both do div II & div I ball) and this year at the juco meeting we noticed that there were two new members added to the roster.

And we all know that in hoops bad odor tend to float uphill....