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-   -   Travel or TO? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/3481-travel.html)

jbduke Mon Dec 17, 2001 02:59pm


A1 throws a long pass late in a tight game that is intercepted by B1. As soon as B1 catches the ball (he is airborn), Coach B, who is standing in front of his bench very near me and B1, calls for TO. B1, on the way down, asks for TO. B1 gets one foot down, then his momentum gives him another, then another (the pivot came up and then back down). I called a travel. Obviously, the question is whether player control is established as soon as one foot comes down (in which case I should have granted the TO), or if instead the player must come down without travelling before control is established?

Wait. Just realized I kicked it. If B1 had intercepted on his way out of bounds and controlled it before landing, I know that he should be granted the TO. Nuts.

JB

ScottParks Mon Dec 17, 2001 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke

A1 throws a long pass late in a tight game that is intercepted by B1. As soon as B1 catches the ball (he is airborn), Coach B, who is standing in front of his bench very near me and B1, calls for TO. B1, on the way down, asks for TO. B1 gets one foot down, then his momentum gives him another, then another (the pivot came up and then back down). I called a travel. Obviously, the question is whether player control is established as soon as one foot comes down (in which case I should have granted the TO), or if instead the player must come down without travelling before control is established?

Wait. Just realized I kicked it. If B1 had intercepted on his way out of bounds and controlled it before landing, I know that he should be granted the TO. Nuts.

JB

Yup, this is not football. Don't have to have both or any feet down to have a catch :), I mean possession

Mark Padgett Mon Dec 17, 2001 03:25pm

B1 established player and therefore team control when he caught the ball. Player control is defined as dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds. When he jumped from inbounds and caught the ball, he was holding a live ball inbounds. At that point, head coach B or any B team member on the floor may request and be granted a timeout. You don't have to wait until he comes down, and if you were aware of the request prior to the travel, you must grant it.

rainmaker Tue Dec 18, 2001 03:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke
Wait. Just realized I kicked it. ....... Nuts. JB
Join the club!! We've all kicked quite a few, and you just have to get up and go on. "Aw, Nuts" is a common feeling for a ref. Just be sure you get it right next time, and you'll be fine ... until the next one.

paulis Tue Dec 18, 2001 02:16pm

I have NEVER kicked a call! I have had tons of bad angles though.

LarryS Tue Dec 18, 2001 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by paulis
I have NEVER kicked a call! I have had tons of bad angles though.
Come on, NEVER :)

You sound like Daniel Boone. He said he had never been lost in the woods...confused, yes...lost no. He was even once confused for an entire week.

I know it was tongue in cheek. What is really bad is when you see a violation (along with everyone in the gym) and every part of you is making the call except your hands and mouth. :confused:

Larks Tue Dec 18, 2001 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke

A1 throws a long pass late in a tight game that is intercepted by B1. As soon as B1 catches the ball (he is airborn), Coach B, who is standing in front of his bench very near me and B1, calls for TO. B1, on the way down, asks for TO. B1 gets one foot down, then his momentum gives him another, then another (the pivot came up and then back down). I called a travel. Obviously, the question is whether player control is established as soon as one foot comes down (in which case I should have granted the TO), or if instead the player must come down without travelling before control is established?

Wait. Just realized I kicked it. If B1 had intercepted on his way out of bounds and controlled it before landing, I know that he should be granted the TO. Nuts.

JB

I was gonna say....so you called traveling...did you then grant the TO? Double DOH!

And that brings up my quesiton....can a team request a time out and then recind the request based on some action or decision on the floor elsewhere....example...A1 is trapped by B1 and B2. Coach for team A asks for a TO at roughly the exact same time as a foul is called on B1 thus bailing A1 out of a trap.

Or in this case...Coach is trying to get a TO while you call travel....similar to a player controling the ball laying on the ground trying to get up....Lead calls travel while trail grants time out....Coach sez: Hey, I dont need the TO now!

Old guys....what do we got?

Larks (Rookie At Large)

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 18, 2001 04:43pm

Larks,in both cases,you got the officials getting together(out of hearing range)and deciding what came first.They are never simultaneous.If you decide the TO request came first,anything after called afer is cancelled.If the foul or violation came first,you then ask the coach if he still wants the TO.If he doesn't,play on.If someone wants an explanation,give 'em a quick one and then go.

paulis Tue Dec 18, 2001 04:53pm

LarryS, I know that on one play I called a foul on a player and gave the signal for a block while verbalizing a hold and then reporting a push. Do you think anyone noticed?

Larks Tue Dec 18, 2001 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Larks,in both cases,you got the officials getting together(out of hearing range)and deciding what came first.They are never simultaneous.If you decide the TO request came first,anything after called afer is cancelled.If the foul or violation came first,you then ask the coach if he still wants the TO.If he doesn't,play on.If someone wants an explanation,give 'em a quick one and then go.
Thats kind of what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.

Larks (VIT)

bigwhistle Tue Dec 18, 2001 05:10pm

spirit of the rules
 
Larks,

This is a great example of why you do not want to be a "text book" official. This may ruffle some feathers, but such is life. You have to deal with each situation that comes up in a game and weigh the merits of calling the play by the exact wording of the rule versus the spirit of the rule.

In the case you presented, you can go back to the coach and ask if he still wants the time out. As long as you do this before you officially grant it, there is no problem and you have saved yourself a whole lot of grief.

The rule book is a guide which gives us standards by which to control the game. Every instance does not have to, and should not be taken literally. I realize that there are some here who are very proficient with the "letter of the law" in the book. This is great, but does not mean that they can or cannot call a decent game.

Take the advice of this site and learn from it. Much is good, but some is so theoretical that you will only get yourself in a lot of trouble if you get caught up so much in the book itself that you forget to allow the game to happen.

LarryS Tue Dec 18, 2001 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by paulis
LarryS, I know that on one play I called a foul on a player and gave the signal for a block while verbalizing a hold and then reporting a push. Do you think anyone noticed?
Great, another mistake I have to look forward too. Sorry but they probably noticed. I got my mouth ahead of my fingers once...said "2-3 black" but signaled 3-2. Scorekeeper just laughed (can you give a T to the scorekeeper?)

The "old" guys make this look easy.

bigwhistle Tue Dec 18, 2001 05:30pm

table communication...
 
Reporting to the table is a great time to communicate with the coaches.

For reporting fouls to the table.....If there is a made basket that you are going to count, DO IT FIRST! The scorer is more interested in the 2 or 3 points than the foul. Next give the color of the fouler. This lets them know the proper side of the book to record the foul. Then the number.

You have now completed your necessary communications with the scorer. As you give the signal for what kind of foul, you are communicating with the coaches. Some will say that the less said the better, but there are times that a verbal explanation calms a coach down.

For example, if you have a foul on white 15 for throwing an elbow. Since there is no signal for this, after you have reported to the scorer white 15, and as you are giving a push signal, you can let the coach know what happened by stating "threw an elbow". Whether or not the coach agrees with the call is irrelevant, but at least he now knows what you called.

BktBallRef Tue Dec 18, 2001 05:34pm

Re: table communication...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bigwhistle
For example, if you have a foul on white 15 for throwing an elbow. Since there is no signal for this, after you have reported to the scorer white 15, and as you are giving a push signal, you can let the coach know what happened by stating "threw an elbow". Whether or not the coach agrees with the call is irrelevant, but at least he now knows what you called.
Or he'll ask, "Which is it, a push or an elbow?" That's why I don't verbalize fouls.

bigwhistle Tue Dec 18, 2001 05:51pm

Re: Re: table communication...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Or he'll ask, "Which is it, a push or an elbow?" That's why I don't verbalize fouls. [/B]
"Coach, we don't have a signal for an elbow, but I wanted you to know what he did".


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