Whats the world comming to?
 

I was working a high school AAU game this past weekend and 10 minutes into the game one kid pushed an opposing player to the floor, stood over him and pounded his face to a bloody pulp as he (the opposing player) was on his hands and knees. I was the trail offical in the back court and it happen in the front court opposite side of my lead. Before we could get there the kid was KO'ed. The coach ran on the court calling for someone to call the police, players squared off and spectators came down to the floor. Not much I thought I could do at that moment but we both tried to calm everyone down. The player(the beater) and one of the coaches for his team hurried him out of the gym before the cops got there. The weirdest thing was there was no indication of any problem before that point. No trash talking, no roughness and not any controversy. The kid was takin away in a ambulance and I found out the next day he had to have surjury to reconstruct his cheek bone and he had a dislocated jaw. I think I may end up in court on this one.

I see fights in NBA games sometimes on TV were guys get suspended for 10 or 20 games but if you saw how bad this kid beat the other one, if it was in the NBA I bet he would be suspended for life.

Whats the world comming to?

You need to get a written report in to whoever assigned you to this game <b>now</b>. Immediately. Someone is gonna sue on behalf of the injured player, and if and when they do, they will name everybody involved, including the officials.

It's CYA time.

I'm sure it varies by state, but what does the law say about this as far as an official being liable in a case like this?

I don't have a clue. I do know though that in cases like this, everybody in the gym will get named in a suit. Frivolous or not, you gotta defend yourself too. Btw, most sports insurance plans do cover lawyer fees if you're being sued on related activities.

Is the video on youtube yet? Surely it's out there.

A NASO membership might be nice right about now, n'est pas?

I wrote no statement and I have no insurrance.....Is it too late to get insurance knowing now that I could be involved in a law suit?

Probably too late.....Two things to consider....Are you a member of an association? Are you certified for high school through NFHS? If so, one of those things may have some coverage backing you that you don't know about.

It's highly unlikely that any insurance you buy from today forward would cover you for an incident that happened in the past. You still may be able to obtain liability coverage for the future, but YMMV.

Even though you haven't written a statement yet, though, doesn't mean you can't now. Write down exactly what happened, and exactly what you and your partner did. If you have an assignor or board commissioner, you may want to send him/her a copy.

As stated, check to see if your association has blanket coverage. Also check with whoever paid you for those AAU games as to whether they carried insurance. Their coverage might also cover you.

And get a report in. I'm kinda surprised that the police haven't contacted you already. That sounds like a felony assault of some kind.

Written reports are considered legal documents. So they can and have been used for court cases.

Not sure how any of this has to do with the NBA. The NBA rarely even has a fight as compared to most sports.

Peace

Because the consequences are so severe; as opposed to other sports.

Actually this is a great point.

If you're really concerned you might get sued speak to a lawyer before saying or writing anything to anyone else.

Since this was an aau game there's no report required. If I were you I would get with my partner and write down anything and everything possible about the game and file it away just in case. Then I would talk to the tournament director and my local association to see what kind of liability insurance I actually have. Then I would forget about it.

Oh yeah, you definitely should carry some type of your own liability insurance.

I just received the current NFHS newsletter. In this publication there is an article about legal issues. I can not give any details because I just flipped through the pages. I was just glancing at the title of the articles. I was surprised that the new basketball rules were not listed. Oh well..... have to wait for the next issue.

Well, I wouldn't call them legal documents like I would, say, contracts or court documents, but reports ARE discoverable. The absolute best thing to do if you are worried about information coming out is to talk to a lawyer and let him write everything down. The other side for sure can't get to that based on the attorney client (and likely work product) privileges.

I highly doubt you'll get sued. Its likely they won't be able to find out who you are by the time the attorney gets around to filing this thing, if that happens at all. Even if they do know who you are, if you are uninsured, they probably won't mess with it. Your share of the negligence as it relates to the total event is so small, it wouldn't amount to much -- and that assumes you were even negligent at all, which I doubt.

Not to get into a legal discussion, especially since state law varies, but negligence, which is what you'd get sued based on, requires 4 elements: duty, breach of the duty, cause, and harm. Sometimes the last 2 elements are merged together (as they are in Texas). All elements must be proved or the case falls. I personally don't believe an official has a duty to prevent an unprovoked violent attack by one player on another, especially given that there was no forewarning or previous similar behavior. Without a duty, there's no negligence and no case.

Guys, the areas where we can get ourselves in big trouble are: playing on unplayable fields, courts, or conditions, AND attempting or preventing needed medical attention. Stay away from screwing around in those areas, and you'll probably stay lawsuit free.

Aggie, are you an attorney? Or did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Very well said.

The point that I was trying to make is the fact that any report that you file can and will be used in a court of law or reviewed by a court as part of the record. Calling it a "legal" document might not be the actual phrase for how a report will be used, but it has been used on many occasions when these kinds of situations go to court. Just like a document filed in a business might be used to show all kinds of background on other types of court cases.

Peace

If it was truely an AAU event. AAU has insurance and liability over this incident. Couple things different I would have done, or it sounds like it didn't get done. The player doing the fighting is ejected, #name in the book. If you didn't do this, then maybe something might come after you. Did you call the game? The team and the AAU will get sued, not you.

I had one this past weekend, but I was able to see it coming, but I had to work at it to determine. What I mean is that the kids where talking to each other under their breath where we could not hear them. On the F/T lines, they where talking to each other again, but very softly. After one scored on the other, lot of soft talking. The only thing I needed to determine was if this conversation was pleasent or not. It took awhile and I started getting closer to the players to try to hear what was being said. Yea, we got a problem here and my partners didn't even know it. What ended up happening was late in the game, a open court foul, nothing bad here, I got the call. Before I could report, the kid that was foul, kicked the living sh!t out of the player that fouled him, which I ran in with a Flargrant Technical Foul, which the other kid retaliated with a shove of his own, now I got another Flagrant Technical foul, my first, and it was a double. So I ended up with a double flagrant technical foul, both parties ejected.

The story doesn't end. We get back to the game, which ended with no more controversy, but the underneath talking didn't stop. So when the game was over and they all went thru and shook each overs hand, now everybody grouped up and going back to their benches, the talking started again, and it was about to explore. I monitored the handshake, which is something I normally don't do. Afterwards, I immedately jumped into the center of both teams and told them to quite talking to each other, the game is over, go to your benches!!! My partners where on the other side of the court getting ready to leave, they didn't even know and maybe they didn't care. Once I got the teams separated, and everyone was headed towards there benches, backs to each other, I turned it over to the coaches and I got the hell out of there. As I was leaving, I had a couple of parents thank me for my efforts.

Just a thought, but maybe you could have told them to quit the talking sooner.

I tried. I gave multiple warnings, I grab 2 players and told them to not talk to here other anymore, but the minute they lined up next to each other on the F/T line, there was a conversation going on. Since it was not obvious, no one suspected the worse except me. One other thing, you really can't give a technical to a player and you don't hear what he actually says, even if you suspect the worse. I guess I have never seen a group of players politely and softly go about it in the way that was done here, never, but my suspicion was confirmed.

Yes, you can give them a T. It might be a case where you stop everything and warn them, if you so much as here "nice shot" directed to an opponent, it's a technical foul. Tell the coaches if you must.

Not going there Snaqs, maybe you will give a player a T for saying nice shot, but not me. That will never happen in my game. I'm not looking to overofficiate the game, just manage it, that's all. If the players are being polite to one another, that is what I want. However, the point here is to pay attention to the players. Get in there and listen if you have too. I have had games come down to F/T's and players on the line or directly behind the shooter, say things you would not believe, like if you make this shot, I'm going to kick your a$$. If you're standing way over there by the sideline, you will not even know a conversation is taken place. The OP didn't think something was wrong in his game. Well he was wrong and both him and his partner missed the signs from the players that something wasn't right.

most games, you're right. But if you know they're trash talking, you have the right to step in and stop it; even if it's mumbling. Simply tell them and the coaches you know what's going on and that you're not going to tolerate it. By you're own admission, you didn't manage this game well. Maybe this game would have devolved no matter what, and there's no way it could have been managed well. If it's obvious to you that these kids aren't complimenting each other under their breath, make the call.
You have no way of judging the OPs game and whether or not he missed signs. Just because you didn't deal with the signs in your game doesn't mean he missed some in his. Sometimes, this stuff happens with no warning at all.

You sound like you have no managing skills whatsoever. I'm not saying the OP screwed up, I'm just saying if some kid gets his head beat in to the point of unconsiousness, and has to be rushed to the hospital, you didn't do your job very well as an official, period. If I'm the assigner, I'm probably not going to assign you anymore games, period. As far as my game. I did deal with it. I didn't turn my head like you and the rest. I didn't go wine to the coaches, your players are whistering to one another and I didn't bring BS into the game by calling unnecessary TF's. I dealt with it, I got thru it, and no ambulance needed to be called afterwards and even got thanked by several parents afterwards, not one. Now, deal with that!

That's complete and utter udder. The OP said that nothing previously had happened. What kind of job the official had done is not a factor in any way in this situation. And no assignor anywhere, including the rec leagues that you solely work, would ever lay any blame on to the official. If he tried doing that, he wouldn't have any officials left to assign anyway.

Why do you people waste your time arguing with this goober? He'll never change...or learn.

You've had some real weird posts in your short history here. This, however, might just take the cake.

I don't give a monkey's arm pit if the parents offered to take you out for dinner and pay for your college. It's irrelevant.

AAu does have some governing authority and I think they would want to know about this at one of their tournaments. I'd like to hope this player (the hitter) would not be allowed back.

TexasAggie said; "Its likely they won't be able to find out who you are by the time the attorney gets around to filing this thing, if that happens at all"
I don't think they will have much trouble figuring that out if they want to know.

Nothing that he recognized. He better hope there's not any film of this, because if there is, and it shows negilence. He could be in trouble. Again, if it is truly an AAU event, then he is protected by the AAU.

Tell that to the parents or mad coaches. It's one thing to have a punch thrown, it's an entirely different thing to have a fight go on an on, one kid down on the floor while another kid is punching him to death. To me, that seems like the officials where negilent in their duties. That's all I'm saying and I'm not mad at the OP. Snaqs constant challenging of what I say bought that out. I was not trying to go there, but the fact of the matter is, anything can go wrong in the game, how you react to it is important.

Will you ever get it through your rec league-centered brain that it doesn't matter one damn bit what the damn parents or coaches think? We don't officiate for parents or coaches. The only people that worry about what parents or coaches think are the Old Schools of the world, nor <b>real</b> officials.

Stupid monkeys....:rolleyes:

What are the official's duties in a fight?

How were the officials in this case negligent?

Who doesn't learn? You respond to him here, then an hour and 40 minutes later, you respond to him again. Who's the one feeding the monkey? :D

He didn't say they were "negligent". He said they were "negilent". There's a difference. I looked up "negilent" in the dieblernary. It is defined as "a word used only by people whose shoe size exceeds their I.Q."

I think the metric definition is different.

You might want to rethink that one. I bet yor assigners care what the coaches think. I also bet that if the coach told your assigner he never wanted you in his gym again, you would not be in that gym again.

That would be incorrect too. We just had a major rule change to our mechanics because of what the coaches think. Going opposite table to speed the game up because too much dialog between the parties. Seems to me that a lot of people care about what the coaches think since we are spending so much time talking to them that we need a rule change. But that's jmo. What do I know.

I admit, I approach this different. I care about what everybody thinks. I want everybody to have a good time and see a good, well referee'd contest when they come to my events. But again, that's just me. It's not about me when I officiate, it's about the game and the players in the game. I be damn if I let a kid beat another kid to a bloody mess on my court. He might get one or two in, but it won't be too many more than that before I get to them.

1) I'd bet you're wrong. I am an assignor. I don't let coaches tell who I can or can't put on a game. I would especially never dream of letting AAU or rec league coaches try to dictate anything like that. Maybe in your little rec-league universe, you have to worry about pleasing coaches and parents, but real officials don't. They just call the damn game.

2) What do you know? Nothing about the rules. With regards to mechanics, you know what you've read so far on this forum. Nothing else. Your officiating knowledge is mainly based on what you hear on tv, as far as I can tell.

The problem is, if we don't feed the monkeys, PETA gets mad and protests us.

A couple points to respond to, mainly from Old School.

1) The input of the coaches on officiating has a lot to do with the area. I know assignors who will allow coaches to ding officials completely, but I also know some assignors who will deliberately put an official who a coach tried to ding on the coach's next game to prove he's in charge. I don't think either is a very good approach, but the point is that they both exist, and I'd much rather work for a group where coaches had less input, I think that leads to fairer officiating.

2) In Old School's scenario, it was poor game management to be aware of trash talking and not take care of business. That led directly to the flagrant Ts. Warn loudly so it's clear that no more back and forth will be tolerated and then double T, everyone will get the message and you project an image of strength. The coaches and players might get pissed at you, but at least you show them that you are firmly in charge and thus manage the game.

3) In the OP, something precipitated the attack and it either was past history or something that you didn't see or hear during the game. My advice is that if there's any tape of the game that you get a hold of that to help you defend yourself. Who knows in a lot of these AAU games what the history between the players is off the court or if there were past incidents. Or the kid may have just snapped, but given the reaction of the coach running the kid outta the gym to prevent him from being arrested, my bet is dollars to dimes that this player/team have history. Best wishes to you, hope everything turns out good on your end.

Old School...if you honestly think that just because a fight breaks out during a game the officials involved missed something of messed up you are A COMPLETE IDIOT!

Last Saturday I was calling a game and about 4 minutes into the game we have a OOB call and my partner brings in 2 subs into the game. We resumed play and the sub for the team with the ball drives to the hoop and is fouled hard by the player that just came into the game for the defense. The ball handler jumped up and they squared off. My partner and I got there fast and I tossed both players. We called it very tight for the rest of the half and things calmed down. Now, could there have been "bad blood" between those two from something earlier? Yep...but this tournament had games played in 4 different locations using 10 gyms. How in the heck are we to know if something happened an hour ago that ticked one off (that may very well have nothing to do with a game played)? How can you "read the signals" of a pending problem when it happens 5 seconds after the two players enter the game?

Even better question...why did I waste my time typing this? :confused:

People Eating Tasty Animals.

Yumm

Because you brought up some good, relevant points, as listed above.....it wasn't a waste of time iow.

When you get into these AAU/rec league tournaments, you don't have a clue what happened a week ago or a state away. And usually, your assignor doesn't either, so he can't warn you or give you a heads-up either. All you can do is react to what happens when it happens. It's hard to be proactive if there's no real reason to do so. If a fight does break out with no previous warning signs, there is nowayinhell that an official is responsible or could have done anything about it.

Just to clear a few things up that was asked. Yes we did call the game. Yes I did eject the player but he knew it was comming before i could even signal it as his coach ushered him out of the gym and out of town in a second. The police neve asked us any questions as I believe they were more concerned it seemed with finding the kid and didnt hang around (or they needed to get to the donut shop). Also my partner and I were both at least 25 feet or more from the incedent and the punches he got off there was no way we could have stopped him from our distance. In fact I was the trail, ball just inbounded and I was following them (player with ball and defender) in the back court with some pressure. Partner was lead moving down court opposite the fight (in front court) and told me he saw nothing until it was over. I only saw one punch but the table said he pounded him 3 times. Maybe I'm a bad ref for not seeing the whole thing but my partner is a Div 2 Ref with many years under his belt and saw nothing.

O-NO-YOU-DIDN'T, you did not manage your game very well unless you're on a 1 man crew. I don't care if your partners were complete dolts, YOU should have communicated with them to make sure YOUR team was on the same page. You might have talked to the players, they maybe didn't listen so you talked to them again, maybe they listened for a minute but then went back to yackin. How many warnings do they get before you T? How many warnings do you give players before you let your partners in on it? What a joke!

Where did I say that? Why don't you read what I say as opposed to trying to interpret what I didn't say. I said that if a kid gets beat to a bloody mess on your court where a ambulance has to be called and the kids face has to be re-attached. It sounds a little suspicious to me. This got nothing to do with prevention. This is after the fact. One kid, beating another and ref's didn't see it. I suppose it could happen, but to the extent it did is what's questionable to me.

Especially if you can't get the story right.

Right there is where you blamed the official, Old School. You can't keep your own stories straight, as usual.

As Larry said, you're a complete idiot.

GOTCHA!!! You did it on 3 different occassions.

From the original post:

“The weirdest thing was there was no indication of any problem before that point. No trash talking, no roughness and not any controversy.”

Since nobody was at this game other than the original poster, we have to take his word.

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 03:56 pm)

“The OP didn't think something was wrong in his game. Well he was wrong and both him and his partner missed the signs from the players that something wasn't right.”

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 05:02 pm)

“I'm just saying if some kid gets his head beat in to the point of unconsiousness, and has to be rushed to the hospital, you didn't do your job very well as an official, period.”

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 06:54 pm)

“It's one thing to have a punch thrown, it's an entirely different thing to have a fight go on an on, one kid down on the floor while another kid is punching him to death. To me, that seems like the officials where negilent in their duties.”

Hope my use of facts doesn't mess up your defense. :)

OS, aren't you the ref who advocates subbing players out of the game as they become problems? Why did you not do this? You have told everyone else to do this in past threads. Sounds like you did not take your own management advice. :rolleyes:

As others repeatedly have pointed out, your advice on game management has little worth, your comments on rules have even less worth. You always seem to have an example from your own games of things going wrong - no matter the topic. Maybe it is time to take a critical look as to why you have so many examples to share with us. :confused:

Bingo!!!!!!!

The OP said the kid got about three good shots in. Only superman or The Flash could have prevented that when it happens in the midst of game action. It's you who needs to read what other people say before jumping to conclusions.

What!!!!!

Shoot the messenger. I understand that when you have nothing of value to add to this discussion you try to attack the credibility of the messenger, trying to make it about me. Nice try but this is not about me. A kid was beat up on the court and by the time we realize what happen it was too late for the kid. For a kid to get beat up to this extent does leave some doubt. It's okay if you don't like my advice because I could care less about yours as well. I simply try to show a different side of the issue because only one side has been painted here.

I would take it personally if a kid was beat to the extent the OP stated on my court while I'm working. Nobody is throwing any punches between the rectangle box today that I don't see immediately and try to get control of. Nobody is going out in a ambulance for being beat up on my court either. They may need an ambulance because they made an athletic play and hurt themselves, but not for getting beat up by a player on the opposite team. I got some more advice for you, but it's okay if you don't like it. You are supposed to watch "all" ten players at "all" times when the ball is live. Oh, and guess what, that's not in the rulebook either but it is true.

As far as my examples. It's because I get out there and work some games. I don't stay at home all day and read the rulebook when I don't have nothing to do. I get out there and work and things happen. Something you should try to do instead of attacking someone who does, and then maybe you will have some story's to tell.

This looks great on paper, and it probably works when you're reffing 3rd and 4th grade, but there's no way it's 100% possible when working with any players over the age of 11. They're too fast, too athletic for you to be in complete control. I don't care what you say on this board, but I do want others to understand that your little diatribes don't have a lot to do with reality.

1) You don't have any credibility. That's because you haven't added anything of value here since McGriffs closed and you found this site, JMO. It's about you because you keep trying to comment on something you know absolutely nothing about--officiating.

2) You're the only one that thinks that it's the official's fault. That's because you don't have a clue what officiating is really about.

3) No, you're supposed to watch the players in your primary. That sureashell <b>IS</b> in the Mechanics Manual, which is <b>another</b> book that you don't happen to own.

4) How can you read something that you don't have?:confused:

Shoot the messenger mentality....
 

Of course this is not about a kid who was beat up so bad in a basketball game that was officiated by certified officials, that an ambulance had to be called to this game. Of course this is not about that! Why don't you review your statistics and tell us how many times kids in an organized event has been beat up so bad that an ambulance had to be called and the kids faced re-attached?

Now I don't think it's the officials fault either, I'm just raising the doubt because of the extenuating circumstances here. I mean if we're going to let kids beat each other up to this extent, we might as well not even be there. That is my point. Why do the game? Since you are not able to stop a kid from getting his face bash in. If we are going to take responsibility and do the game, then we need to bare some responsibility to what happened in the game. You can not get around this, which means it is not about me or my credibility or some character on the McGriff board. Neither of us have all the information we need to judge here, but I think I have more than you to make a reasonable judgment. I have a injured kid who needed hospitalization, fact. You have the referee's word, unproven, and no one else to substantiate. Yet you are dead sure the referee is not at fault. Well, you don't have enough information to be dead sure. It matters not to me that you are all in agreement that this is not the officials fault because these are some of the questions that are going to need to be answered.

I'm not looking to place blame here but I am interested in understanding more about what happened here and challenging your assertion that the referee is not at fault. If he is not at fault, then his statement should stand up to ridicule. So far it has not, and you know how I can tell. Because the conversation has turned personal.

Well, in post #24 of this thread, you did say it was the official's fault:
Can you give me any specific examples, or a reasonable explanation, as to how two kids wailing on each other can be the official's fault?

If you read what I said, I said you didn't do your job very well, not that it was your fault.

#1) I didn't say it was the officials fault. #2.) My interpretation is that one kid was wailing on another, who was not fighting back. The kid had gained an advantage and was laying on the floor getting his head beat in to the point of unconsciousness. In professional hockey where fighting is allowed, they don't let you beat an opponent until they are unconscious.

You see, I fear we had two officials of a different ethnic background, let some inner city kids beat the crap out of each other before they decided to get involved. I have already heard the comment stupid monkeys, which I interpret to mean black folks. Again, this is my fear, and because I fear it does not make it a matter of fact. It also does not make any difference to us as officials what color you are. Once the ball becomes live you are responsible for everything that happens on that floor until the game is over.

Like the example I used. After the kid kicked the player, I could have stepped back and just let them go at it, let them burn off some aggression. I have seen officials just stand there and do nothing, let the players decide it, waiting to administrator technicals afterwards, etc. I'm wondering if that didn't happen here. If it's adults, maybe you better stand back but if you notice, the biggest strongest most athletic men in the world, the NBA officials don't let them go at it. Why? It's because they love what they do and none of them is going to have that crap on their court. Did you notice how the official grabbed Steve Nash, preventing him from throwing a blow and thus getting tossed out the game and suspended as well. The official did that to protect the player because Nash was going to nail him. Go back and watch it, it was one of the most outstanding things the official did in that series that went unnoticed.

When you love what you do, these things don't happen on your court. When you are just out there to draw a check, I guess it's not your fault, stupid monkeys...

Fact: By your own admission there is not enough information or substantiated evidence to make judgement. period. Yet you continue to insinuate that the officials did not do their job completely, thereby allowing a player get assaulted. The fact there is an injury only proves there was an assault, NOT that there was negligence on anyones part. You can dance all around the wording if you like. I have read every post in here and you sir, Old School, have repeatedly said indirectly that the officials were indeed responsible for the assault and any actions taken or not after. This is IMO, unfair to the officials. Since none of us were there, the OP was and therefore has the most credibility. It is with that being said. I take his word at value and make no judgement. I learn from the incident and hope it doesn't happen on my court.

No, "silly monkey" translates to "stoopid idiot". It's got nothing to do with race and never has. And there isn't another description around that could be be more apt when it comes to describing you, JMO.

There was absolutely no reason to bring race into this thread, and your trying to do so shows exactly what kind of person that you are. The ethnic background of the officials <b>OR</b> the players has never been brought up in this thread. There was no reason to because it wasn't a factor. If it was, the original poster sureashell mighta mentioned it. And howinthehell do you know what race the officials were btw? That's just another terrible, ridiculous slur against the original poster, Philz. Now you're intimating that Philz and his partner stood back and let one kid kick the snot out of another kid just because they were black. Well, that's just completely freaking wrong! That's a terrible statement for one <b>supposed</b> official to say about another. You're looking for any pathetic reason to back your moronic claim that it was the official's fault, and when all else fails, pull the damn race card. Well, that's just sad and you're just sad.

Silly monkey.