Legal Guarding Position
 

From another forum.....

Defensive player B1 has established a legal guarding position on dribbler A1, and you have started a 5-second closely guarded count. The defender now slips and falls to the floor, face-down, in front of the dribbler. Do you continue your closely-guarded count while B1 is laying face down on the court?

No. I end my 5-count and start a 10-count.

LOL.....:D

Sounds like your friend could use some new sneakers.

Where is that sneaker selling guy?

nikepopularshoes
 

you buy good shoe.

i ship tomorrow.

you call 86-594-2759811 i sell you shoe

Five dolla. Shoe last long time.

That's funny. If the coach throws in the towel, then what do you have?? :D

And no foget.. no leeefund!!!

I might have a technical (KO).

Aw geeze, I'm serious, guys, believe it or not.

Opinions-----can a defender maintain LGP and a closely-guarded count continue while the defender is laying face down on the court?

Under ncaa, no. Defender cannot maintain guarding position lying on the floor. This has been discussed here many times.

I'm sure someone will copy/paste half the fed rulebook to show why he thinks I'm wrong but I'm stopping my count in a fed game on this as well, unless there's another defender in the vacinity to take his place.

I'll only copy this, and only as an aid to further discussion....

NFHS rule 4-23-3(a)--"After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status."

Fwiw, I agree with you btw. Other esteemed members don't.

Agreed...nowhere in the discussion of maintaining LGP does it talk about a player lying on the floor.

The dribbler's just gonna stand there for 5 seconds while his defender is on the floor? I don't think you're ever going to have to worry about this.

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]I'll only copy this, and only as an aid to further discussion....

NFHS rule 4-23-3(a)--"After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status."

Technically, both feet are still on the playing court. :D Just technically;)

He doesn't have to stand there for 5 seconds. You could be at 4 on your count when the defender falls, just about to strike 5. Or, B1 could fall down just before B2 steps in to guard A1.

And your call is, Snaqs?

LGP or not?

LGP with regard to responsibility for contact? Sure, if the contact is against the defender's feet.
With regard to closely guarded counts? No, I don't think so. Do we consider the player closely guarded if the defender has his back to the dribbler?

I won't make the 5 second call unless there's another defender within the 6 feet requirement.

i don't think I would either, I was just saying the possibility of having to make the decision isn't as miniscule as Scrapper implied.

1) Are you talking about LGP as opposed to having a legal position on the playing court? They're completely different concepts, which I'm sure that you know. Under NCAA rules, lying down isn't a legal position on the playing court. Under FED rules, it was and maybe still is, but the applicable case play has been removed.

2) Rule 4-23-3(b) says that the defender is not not required to continue facing the opponent.

1) You're right, I was over thinking it.

2) Dammit! I need my rule book here.

I am still ending my 5-count, and I will continue to employ the terms "normal defense" and "actively guarding", both judgement interpretations, until I am advised to do otherwise.

I can't see myself continuing a 5s count.

B1 might be guarding Matta's gum, but he ain't guarding A1.

If asked in a game situation, I'll do the same thing and cite mick as my source.

I would like to think if B1 is lying face down, that A1 could have his head and shoulders past B1 and thus end the count as well. :D

It doesn't make sense, but by all "definitions" (or lack of definition), I would lean toward the count continuing.

B1 established LGP.
B1 is still in the path of the dribbler and still has LGP.

Rule 4-23-3(a) isn't relevant or doesn't apply?

Ah, but if the kid fell down on Count-1, with his head within 5' of the ball handler and his feet 10'-10" away from the dribbler, I am guessing Counts-2 thru 5 could become, at least a bit, tedious. :)

:D <i></i>

Mick, that was really funny. :D

BTW, why would a dribbler stand there long enough to start a count at all?

Peace

I fail to see anything (yet) in 4-23 that dismisses he has LGP within a maximum of 6 feet.

I also do not see the word "actively guarding" (yet).

The only place I see a 5 count terminated is during an interuppted dribble. (other than the 6 ft max)

Only if B1 stays down for 4 more seconds!


The cool thing is, as was stated before, either B1 will be back on his feet, or A1 will be past him before this question would ever need to come into play.

...and it also keeps my nose in the book.

when B1 gets up are you required to finish with the Standing 8 count?:D

go ahead and continue your count -- it doesnt matter -- Im sure old skool will be along to agree with you which is pretty much the kiss of death

LOL! Tell him to go buy some Staburys

Well, based on what's in the rule book, tell me why should the count be terminated?

I gave my case, convince me of yours. Official to coach.

JR has mentioned it several times -- are 1 or both feet on the ground?

where is the expectation of defense with a player on the ground?

a player on the floor is quite likely to have one or both feet touching the floor. Frankly, I think a case can be made by rule to have a count continue.

very nimble player with very flexible ankles.

How so? Nothing says the bottom of his feet have to be touching the floor; only that his feet have to be on the floor. Lay on the floor and tell me where your feet naturally lay.

So what you are saying is, when a player falls to the floor, their feet stay on the floor at all times?

Peace

this is where the rule book and common sense meet and a lot of officials get lost in the intersection.

its ok snaq and coach p thats how you can do it -- i sure as heck wont.

No, but while they're not on the floor, they're most likely airborne. :)

Didn't say that's how I'd call it, I'm only saying that an argument could be made. I'm still not sure, frankly; although it's probably a had-to-be-there thing. If the player slips momentarily and continues to actively guard the dribbler, I'll probably continue my count. If he falls flat on his face and just lays there; I'll probably stop play for an injury timeout.
Oh, and you can't accuse those of us trying to actually see what the rule says of being like Old School and then turn around and offer your comment in red; which is a lot closer to OS's rules philosophy.

The rules are not there to cover every possible situation. The casebook is supposed to clear up common and sometimes uncommon occurrences that might actually happen. If a defender falls, I do not think it is to our benefit to call something that clearly is not what the rules were made for. Unless you see something in writing that makes this very clear, I would think common sense should prevail. This has nothing to do with what OS thinks or how he forms an opinion. At the very least I would like to see something so unusual in writing before making such a big call. As I said before, I do not know many ball handlers that are just going to stand there while a defender is on their back, so I really do not see the issue either way. Just a guess on my part.

Peace

Exactly. Which is why I'm shocked this thread has made it to 4 pages.

You're right, the odds of the stars aligning in such a way as to have this happen are so slim as to be practically zero. Like I said, if the defender stays down that long, I'm likely to blow it dead for injury.
If he slips (to his knees for example) and gets immediately back up all the while continuing to guard the dribbler, I see no reason to suspend or restart the count.
You're also right that the rules don't seem to address this as smoothly as I'd like, so disagreement here is to be expected.
My reference to OS was in response to deecee's invokation; because I frankly don't give a crap about how OS would rule this play.

Actually, we don't have to wonder whether a dribbler would stand there for 5 seconds. All it takes is part of a second. If B1 slips just before your hand strikes 5, are you going to make the 5 second call?
If B1 slips and gets immediately back to his feet between your second and third strike, are you going to start your count over or continue as if nothing had happened?

Snaq,

The main point that I am addressing, is the fact that even if you call this by what you see as the rule, then no one is going to understand it or accept your explanation. I understand that we as officials want to be as correct and follow the rules to the letter. But I feel this would be trying to find something rather than calling something based on what makes the most sense. I hardly doubt a coach is going to complain to any of us about keeping the count. And if they happen to complain, they would have to show me or explain to me what the rules specifically say. We all know that is not going to happen. Coaches do not even know rules that are written and you expect a coach to know an obscure reference to whether the feet stay on the floor?

Peace