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Rookie Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:07am

I had a partner last night who game up to me during half time to dispute a call I made. Team B received an intentional foul, after team A shot (and missed) their two free throws Team B called a 30 second time out. My partner then explained to me that they shouldn't have received the time out becuase they had time to talk during the free throws. I said they called a legit time out and they get it. He then proceeded to tell me that you can administer free throws during a time out, but I pointed out that one team would only have four players, and he then pointed out to me that one team would missing only one player? WTF?

Bottom line, can a team call a time out after the free throws and prior to the throw in on a technical foul?


On a side note, this is my second year, and I really want to move up the varsity level, and I am getting really fustrated with partners who don't want to do a pre-grame, talk with the coaches. This guy even said that he didn't want to get the captains together becuase they here the same thing every game, I told him I think we should talk to them, he then went on a 10 tirade about every imaginable rule. I am getting bad habits by working with partners who don't care about the administration of a game, and I am trying hard to do what I have to do. /rant over

paulis Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:18am

The time out is fine. Ask your assignor not to schedule any more games for you with this "partner". It is one thing not to understand the rules it is entirely different for "partners" not fulfilling the requirements of officiating.

We all were rookies at one time and desiring to move up. I remember telling my partners before the game that I was interested in doing things how I instructed or witnessed successful officials doing things and to be patient with your i dotting and t crossing. Then ask them for their advice (people love being asked for their advice). The games might go smoother for you.

ChuckElias Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:20am

Once the game has started, a time-out can be granted during any dead ball, or can be granted to the team in control if one of its players has control of the ball. Before a FT, after a FT, when the shooter has the ball for a FT; it just doesn't matter. Your partner sounds like he was just trying to get the game over as quickly as possible. You were right in this situation. (The only exception to this is after the expiration of regulation time in the fourth quarter or subsequent overtime period. In this situation, one time-out may be granted, but successive time-outs are not allowed.)

As far as your partners not wanting to pre-game or take care of the administrative parts of the game, that is not all that uncommon, unfortunately. You just have to keep doing what you know is right. If your partner is the R and doesn't want to do a pregame with you, then take in on yourself to ask him quesitons about certain situations. "I don't how you usually work, but I always switch on fouls." Or, "Do you come across the lane to work ballside as the Lead?" It's not much, but it might help you to get a feel for how this official will work. And it also will help to get you in a "game-ready" mindset.

You're in a tough situation, because the quality of your partners is going vary wildly. (It varies at all levels, but the amount of variation decreases as you "move up".)You'll work with other dedicated officials, such as yourself; and you'll work with shlubs. You just have officiate the best game you can.

Don't let the shlubs frustrate you or discourage you from doing a pregame (even if it's just with yourself) or from your administrative responsibilities.

Best of luck thru the rest of your season.

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Dec 11th, 2001 at 09:22 AM]

Hawks Coach Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:26am

You can grant a timeout any time it is requested during a dead ball. When ball is live, only the team that has player control of the ball can have the TO (if either team has player control!). Remember that ball becomes live when handed to a free throw shooter or an inbounder, or, after a made shot, when the inbounding team has ball behind baseline. So Team B can have the TO before the FT shooter for A has received the ball for either (or both) FTs or before anyone for A has received the ball to inbound it. A can have the TO at anytime in this scenario, even when FT shooter has ball.

devdog69 Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:27am

This is definitely not a good situation to get in good game management habits. You just have to take the initiative and maybe even do it yourself. I work with a couple of guys that are just there for a few extra bucks and really don't care in some JV tournaments around, one even goes outside at halftime to smoke. Mechanics are horrible and coaches usually try to eat us alive if I let it happen. I realized quickly that these guys were not trying to get better, and I could not let that keep me from getting better. I began to just take charge saying things like "well, i'll go get captains and coaches", if they want to join in fine, if not fine. I force them to switch, by getting to the right spot first and giving them a little nod or point, always keeping it friendly with a laugh or smile so they don't get angry with me. After a few times like this, the one I am mostly talking about when I worked with him Saturday, he just says "take charge" and follows me around. Not always going to be easy, as this situation took a year or so to develop into one I could live with. I have to constantly remind him to watch off ball and invariably a couple times a game I will have to bust it across court because he is so far out of position. Just how I handle it, comments appreciated.

LarryS Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:32am

Rookie,
I am in the same situation. I just do the best I can every time I step on the floor. Sometimes you get to work with the good, dedicated guy that can teach you and help make you better - sometimes you get a schmuk. What is really frustrating is when the schmuk thinks he is God's gift to officiating and is pointing out everything he thinks you are doing wrong. Had one last night, I just made a mental note of everything he "corrected" and looked it up in the books after the game. I grinned when I found out he was 0-8 on his interpretations.

You just gotta grin and bear it - makes the night too difficult if you strangle him at center court :). As I have read several times here; "Get in, get done, get out"

Rev.Ref63 Tue Dec 11, 2001 11:19am

I know what you're saying. I, too, am a second year man. I approach each and every game with the intent of improving my mechanics etc... How discouraging it is to find out you're calling the game with a "veteran" who just doesn't care anymore. On the flip side, how encouraging it is to work with someone who loves what their doing and is willing to help us rookies improve. The veterans need to realize that if they train us properly by setting a good example, (and trust me, we are watching)that makes their job a whole lot easier the next time they call with us. My hat goes off to "devdog" for being a true professional and helping me on my game. Thanks friend.

P.S. If you ask a veteran for advise, it would be wise to follow the advise he gives you.(Assuming it's correct advise) Otherwise, he may not be as free with the advise next time.

rainmaker Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:16pm

I'm also realtively new, and trying to move up -- and I've got to move fast since I'm 45 years old now!! What I have done that has helped is to watch enough games in your area that you can see who the best refs are. Attend the varsity games that will match up the top two teams in your district. If you can find out ahead of time who the refs will be, ask them if you could talk to them after the game about things you observe. Then two or three weeks later, approach them at an association meeting, or clinic and ask about a game situation you need advice on. Ask them at what level to be more relaxed about certain rules. For instance, my first JV game, there were a couple of uniform issues that were not strictly code. I had asked the teacher of our class about how to handle this, so I knew it was okay to say to the coach, "Okay, when these kids play varsity next year, their uniforms will have to be yadda yadda yadda, but today I'm not going to make a big deal about it, but I just want you to know." I was practicing being "detail-oriented" without being overly officious, and I learned that from watching others. If you talk to these better folks, you will also be extablishing a relationship, so that they will be watching you, too. When you work together, they can make suggestions, and they can tell your assignor, "Hey so and so is really learning fast" You don't have to be an apple-polisher, just listen and learn, and keep working on your game and do what it takes to improve and to get noticed.

mick Tue Dec 11, 2001 01:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
For instance, my first JV game, there were a couple of uniform issues that were not strictly code. .

I was U1 t'other night. Gray unis and a white T-shirt on the home team.
In warmups, I suggested that next game he should try to find a grey shirt, then I went to R and U2 and shared that tidbit.
Is gray similar to grey? I hope so.


secondyear Tue Dec 11, 2001 02:03pm

There have been several times when I have worked with veteran/varsity officials who just don't care about the middle school or JV game. In a game last week the veteran that I worked with wanted to switch according to the book - I didn't have a problem with that - unfortunately sometime in the first game and definitely in the second game he stopped switching by the book. Sometimes it's just best to "go with the flow" and learn as much as possible and learn what is the correct procedure. Or as rainmaker suggested, work hard and you will get noticed!

Cheers!

Rookie Tue Dec 11, 2001 02:16pm

I appreciate all your advice, I guess my biggest problem is that we had two different philosophies on what is and isn't a foul. I would call team A for a foul as the lead and he would not make the same call on the other end. I understand he had a better view, but the coaches were getting understandably upset over the inconsistencies. Let me just say these were not border line hacks or pushes, these were clear cut, definition fouls. And before you ask why was I looking at his primary, I have become more focused on my primary, but I don't think he knows what a primary area is, and I was usually just trying to cover what ever part of the floor he wasn't, and I was not going to call a foul that was clearly not mine to call.

Spaman_29 Tue Dec 11, 2001 02:47pm

Hey keep up the good work. Continue with your desire to move up and you will get your chance. Believe me you will have many games and many partners who think that they are the "chosen one" out on the court. I recently had a game with an official who had that idea. He had moved into the state and was assigned to work with me for one game. I am quite young to be a college official and he didn't know that I was officiating at that level. Well he had been assigned to be the R for the game and was going over our pregame. He then told me that we will not be calling a foul on the home team until the visitor had committed a foul and that was at least a couple of minutes into the game. Because that is how college does it. I just made mention that I would be calling a foul if I saw a disadvange to EITHER team reguardless of the time. I didn't tell him that I did officiate at the college level. During the game he made a call that I had never seen before. The coach hadn't seen one like that either. Well he spoke to the coach and said that is how it was interpeted in the NCAA now and High School had the same interpetation. The coach knew me quite well and asked me to come over and talk about it, knowing that I am a college official. It was during a time out BTW. My partner about died when he found out that he was wrong and that I was ranked just a little bit higher than he was. Needless to say he didn't say another word. Nor did want to talk very much after the game. So take a lesson, keep your mouth shut, smile, and nod your head at what people have to say, because if it is wrong it will come back and bite them.

Dan_ref Tue Dec 11, 2001 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

...

Is gray similar to grey? I hope so.


Good question, sadly it's not quite black & white.

Hawks Coach Tue Dec 11, 2001 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaman_29
The coach knew me quite well and asked me to come over and talk about it, knowing that I am a college official. It was during a time out BTW. My partner about died when he found out that he was wrong and that I was ranked just a little bit higher than he was.
How did your partner discover your status during the game (coach's comment?) and what did you tell the coach when pushed on the issue of your partner's call?

Spaman_29 Tue Dec 11, 2001 05:49pm

The coach brought it up. The call wasn't changed because it was after a couple of plays, so the correctible error situation was not in effect. The team that asked for the explanation was up by 15 at the time so the coach let it go, thankfully.


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