Delayed Entry

[Just Curious]

How do I explain this? New score and clock personnel at the high school. Having heard, from the officials in the JV contests, that the person on the clock would 1. Fail to buzz when sub's were waiting, 2. Buzz subs in that reported late, and 3. Buzz any time the table would have a question, we discussed this at length in my pre-game.
With about 2 minutes left in a 2 point ball game, I am lead and had just given the ball to A1 for a throw-in under A's basket, when, you guessed it, the horn goes off. Sub, B6, had reported late (The 3rd time in my game), but I tell A1 to play on only to look up and see my partner wave the sub in without a whistle. With the sub coming on the court, A1 passes the ball to A2. Half the kids on the floor are engaged in the play action and the other half are watching the substitution. I blow my whistle as A2 goes up with a shot. A2 scores. I wave off the shot as no good.
Needless to say, A's coach is upset. He wants either the 2 points or a T for 6 players on the court. I only give his team the ball out again after the substitution.
Looking back on it, I would have maybe done things a little different. What would you have done?

[Mark Dexter]

Oy! What you do is get out of that gym ASAP after the game . . .

That said, if B6 was properly beckoned onto the court, there can be no penalty for him/her for improper entry.

If no one went off for B6, then A's coach is correct with the [team] technical, but no basket.

What I would have done is let A go with the ball and whistle on the next dead ball or when B got the ball - that way A has a chance to make a play from the situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) In your pregame with your partner did you discuss how the two of you would signal that you were both ready to place the ball at the disposal of the thrower?

2) In your pregame with your partner did you discuss the importance of not delay putting the ball a the disposal of the thrower to let a substitute into the game when the substitute had not yet reported into the scorer?

3) Did you have a pregame with the scorer and timer about how substitutes are to report into the game and when to signal for substitutes?

4) Before you placed the ball at A1's disposal did you sweep the floor starting with the scorer's table and ending with you making eye contact with your partner?

From reading the posted play it appears that there was poor communication between the two officials or the trail official didnot use good mechanics.

The trail official beckoned B6 onto the court, there is nothing the lead official can do about that (actually there is, rip him a new anus in the officials' dressing room after the game). It is not a technical foul against Team B for having six players on the floor. Did the lead official sound his whistle before A2 released the ball or after he released the ball? This is an important question. If the whistle was sounded before the ball was released, the ball is dead and the subsequent throw-in will be by Team A. If the whistle was sounded after the ball was released the ball does not become dead until after the ball is made or missed. If the shoot was successful the Team B will get the subsequent throw-in, and if the shot was not successful the subsequent throw-in will be an alternating possession throw-in. In anycase B6 gets to come in the game because of the stoppage of play (I hate using that soccer term, but it best descibes the situation).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Oy! What you do is get out of that gym ASAP after the game . . .

That said, if B6 was properly beckoned onto the court, there can be no penalty for him/her for improper entry.

If no one went off for B6, then A's coach is correct with the [team] technical, but no basket.

What I would have done is let A go with the ball and whistle on the next dead ball or when B got the ball - that way A has a chance to make a play from the situation.

Mark, once your partner has beckoned the sub, you have no choice but to stop the play. You can't let B play with 6 players. There is no technical and we don't wait until the next dead ball to straighten out the mess.

JC, your partner kicked it, not you. My question iswhich team was the home team?

BTW, our crew does normally not allow the horn to be blown for subs. We are very attentive to subs and get them in without a horn. We tell the timer before the game that we will get the subs in and not to blow the horn unless there's a sub on the X and we don't see him/her.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 8th, 2001 at 10:18 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

I have to disagree with you, Mark. If B has six players on the court, it is a technical foul even though it may be the officials' fault.

NFHS 10-1-6: Team technical for "Having more than five squad members participating simultaneously."

Yes, the officials should have had better eye contact. In the end, however, if there are 6 on the court, it is B's responsibility. If you had a substitution of several players from both teams and you count incorrectly so there are 6 A players, are you going to pass on the technical foul for A because you counted wrong? I hope not.

[Mark Dexter]

Your post didn't show up when I put up my last message.

If the other ref was still holding up play, then I would agree with you. If however, he thought the replaced player had left the court, I stand by the T. It's late - I probably misread the original situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The officials cannot charge a team a technical foul for six players on the court when the officials put the sixth player on the court. B6 came onto the court when beckoned by the trail official. The trail official screwed up.

True play. Throw-in on the sideline, table side, by Team A. I am the administering official. Substitutes for Team A come in the game. I count four players for Team A between me and my partner, who is in the lead position opposite the table (this is still when we officiated Cadillac) signals me to put the ball into play. The fifth A player approached me from her team's backcourt. As she got past me I handed her the ball for a throw-in. She looked kind of startled and then passed the ball into a teammate. It is then I saw a fifth A player on the court. I stopped that game for a technical foul for six players on the court. I only saw four players because the fifth unseen player was very small and she was behind a tall player. The player I gave the ball to for the throw-in was one of the players who were coming out of the game. My mistake put six A players on the court. No technical foul. No muss, no fuss. Team A got the ball for a throw-in and the game went on.

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

My question is which team was the home team?

Team A...

[BktBallRef]

Then it's really HIS problem. The clock operator is HIS clock operator. Perhaps he should train HIS clock operator better.

I would definitely have pointed that out to the coach.

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Did the lead official sound his whistle before A2 released the ball or after he released the ball?

Mark, the ball had not yet been released.... But if a player is in the act of shooting, why would there be a difference? NF reference please

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Then it's really HIS problem. The clock operator is HIS clock operator. Perhaps he should train HIS clock operator better.

I would definitely have pointed that out to the coach.

I did..... BTW Aren't you up kinda late?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Just Curious

I did..... BTW Aren't you up kinda late?

Yes, I was. You know how it is....come in kinda late from a game....takes a while to unwind.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Just Curious

Mark, the ball had not yet been released.... But if a player is in the act of shooting, why would there be a difference? NF reference please

See NFHS R6-S7-A5, Exceptions 1 and NCAA R6-S6-A1a and A4a.

[Just Curious]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B]

Originally posted by Just Curious

See NFHS R6-S7-A5, Exceptions 1 and NCAA R6-S6-A1a and A4a.

Good call Mark. Thanks!