Alternate Official
 

I was watching the state championships for California this weekend and saw an interesting situation. In the 2nd quarter of the game, there was a block/charge call where the T and C (3 person) had a double whistle. They came together and decided to call a block against team B. The team B bench went nuts because they thought their player had excellent guarding position (I did too, but that's not the point...).

The official reports the foul and they prepare to shoot 2 free throws. Then the officials come together again and return to the scorers table to let them know that the basket counted. Problem is, the ball never went in. :eek: There was an alternate official at the table next to the scorer and he was aware (or so I hear) that the ball did not go in.

The lesson learned here is that if you have an alternate official, use him to your advantage. You are actually allowed to ask him/her whether the ball went in or not (just as you could ask the score keeper). Obviously, it would have been better if the officials got this one right on their own, but even so - if you have an alternate and need him, use him.

Oh, BTW, the game ended up going into overtime and the team that got the extra bucket won the game...

I think the other lesson is that the alternate can & should speak up. Definately a good pre-game topic for any games at which you have an official sitting at the table.

It'd be a good question as to why they didn't speak with the official scorer or the alternate official.

Was it a boys or girls game and who was playing? Just Curious...

The game was the boys D2 State Championship. Mater Dei defeated Archbishop Mitty in OT.

I also agree that the alternate (or scorekeeper) should have called the R over to discuss the situation if they had difinitive knowledge that the bucket didn't go.

Looks like primaries were not being looked at. where did the player originate from?

I'm shocked, SHOCKED I say that no one has exposed the obvious reason that this kicked call occurred:

Taylor King plays for Mater Dei. Taylor King is a Duke committ. It's obvious Krzyzewski's deep pockets know no bounds - including California high school.

Duke gets all the calls.

One had nothing to do with the other.

Oh, I totally agree that this did not cause the game to go into OT (Mitty missing 15 of 29 free throws did...) but it is definitely is something that needs to be avoided - especially at this high of a level of competition.

...and yes...King was the player driving to the basket that "got" the call...

The game will be reshown on Fox Sports Bay Area on Tuesday March 27 @ noon PST.

Unbelievable, would have to see it to believe it! Three officials and nobody had definite knowledge in a game like that, if the ball went in. Unbelievable! Then to make matters worse, they reason that it did. They should have went jump ball on the block charge, and give both of them a foul. I think it's NCAA Women's that rules different from this being a jump or AP.

Only if it was a blarge. This was only a double whistle. Read the OP again.

You are the only one who displays "defiant" knowledge, in fact, your rules knowledge defies all logic. The rest of us seek definite knowledge on the court.

Furthermore, once again you demonstrate your ignorance of the rules. Under NFHS rules a double foul goes to the POI. It is not an automatic AP situation.

Hold the phone! Who's got possession? If I got a block charge, who gets possession? I believe that be AP?

You are assuming that the try was released before the contact. That is not always the case. In fact, it is probably only the case about 25% of the time.

So you would be wrong about 75% of the time as Team A would still have team control at the time of the double foul.

You sure about this??:rolleyes:

Probably Team A or the charger, unless the ball is away, but if it's close enough to be a blarge, then chances are the ball is still in the offensive player's hands..

You <b>never</b> have a <b>jump ball</B> under any ruleset. Jump balls are <b>only</b> held at the start of the game and before an OT.

If you ever want to grow up and be a real, live, honest-to-goodness official some day, you'll have to learn the difference between a jump ball, a held ball, and how the POI applies under different circumstances. That means buying rule books and reading them. Neither a jump ball or a held ball has any relevance at all when it comes to a blarge.

So I guess the air must be a little thinner out there in Neveda because we forgot so quickly that the OP said they counted the bucket. So it would have been on the shot attempt. AP my boy. On this play, you should go AP. Don't go trying to fine a needle in the hay-stack here. Don't do it! Let it go, we already got one screw-up, let it go, jump ball.

He also wrote that the officials called a blocking foul on the play. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about that!

That means that the try would not have to have been released at a the time of contact in order to count. It could have still been in the shooter's hands, but he had already begun his habitual motion which starts the act of shooting.

Of course, in order to count the ball should actually have entered the basket!

I knew it wouldn't take you long to come out here and start throwing officials under the bus. Way to go JR, true to form. Jump ball, held ball, POI, AP, whatever!!!!!! We all know what to do, except maybe you know how to state it a little better than most.

Now that I got my daily insult dose from JR, I can get back to work.

Yeah, whatever. They're all the same to you anyway, aren't they?

Didn't I tell you not to go there! You don't listen, do you? Don't go there! If you got a block charge sitution, one official saw it this way, the other saw it that way, that's on us. Best thing to do is not to look for trouble. You can't penalize the offensive player and then give him the ball back. To me that's just wrong, but what do I know. I know enough to leave this one along, we're going AP.

The only thing that you know is to make something up because you don't know the applicable rules.

Wow. Who would have thought that this little post could blow up into this...

For clarification, when the contact occurred, I'm pretty sure the ball was still in the shooters hands on the way up to the rim. To me, as a crew, you first have to make a call - it's either a block or charge. Agree on a call and move on. By calling a double foul, you are basically telling everyone in the gym that you disagree on the offending player and want a way out - the double foul and continuing from POI. Then, and most importantly, make sure one of the 3 officials knows if the ball went in, and if you are not sure, ask the scorekeeper, alternate official, your mom, whoever you need to and get it right. Awarding an unmerited basket is pretty bad...

I disagree. You can't disallow the officials call. One of the coaches is not gonna allow that. This is only acceptable in NCAA women's from my understanding.

Okay, we can go POI if you are sure the player hadn't shot or release the ball. Although, I'm not quite sure how you can determine that because if you rule a charge, then it's no basket, if you rule a block, count the basket. We're in some messy territory here, I would punt, not beat myself up over if it is or isn't and go AP. Next time let the primary take the call, have a patient whistle.

I understand your point, but as long as the NFHS rules have the following casebook play, your opinion is going to be secondary to the correct application of the rules. The first thing that officials have to do is follow the rules.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

So where would the ball go if the shot didn't go in? AP! Like I said.

No, you believe that it is AP even if the try had not yet been released.

*4.19.8 SITUATION E: A1 has control of the ball in Team A's frontcourt. Post players A5 and B5 are pushing each other in an attempt to gain a more advantageous position on the block while (a) A1 is dribbling the ball; (b) the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 to A2; or (c) the ball is in the air on an unsuccessful try for goal by A1. An official calls a double personal foul on A5 and B5. RULING: In (a) and (b), Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. In (c), no team has control while a try for goal is in flight, and since the try was unsuccessful, there is no obvious point of interruption. Play will be resumed with an alternating possession throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. Had the try been successful, the point of interruption would have been a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-9)

Let me rephrase for those who live in Rio Linda.

Good point NV. I guess that makes it even more important that if you do have a double whistle, don't give a prelim signal, come together and discuss the situation, and defer to the primary official or the one with a better angle. Then at least you can avoid the double foul and the coaches wouldn't be the wiser since they don't know what either official was going to call anyway.

The Rio Linda's JV coach last year earned himself a nice T from me. He said I was the worst ever. But not so nicely......

Man ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You're just kicking rules all over the place and your making yourself and your crew look like a bunch of bumbling idiots, especially if you have a coach who has half a brain. Believe it or not, this situation has probably come up in one of these coaches game, and a REAL official would've explained the situation BY RULE, CORRECTLY. If it was a blarge, or if it was a double foul, then I'm sure a REAL official has explained the situation to the coach, CORRECTLY. Now if you come to him with this B.S., you're going to bring a heap of problems on yourself and your crew for the rest of the game, and after that game. That coach or coaches will be sending a tape of your incident to the state assocation or superervisor, and you're going to look like the biggest jackass on the face of this earth. As a matter of fact, you and your crew will probably be made part of training tape on HOW NOT TO HANDLE A BLARGE OR DOUBLE FOUL SITUATION. JMHO.

Joe you are little harsh, but exactly correct. You can't be making stuff up especially in block/charge situation like that. Either no call the damn thing or go P.C. or block. If we have double whistles and L comes out with a charge, and T or Slot has Charge then go AP and get the crew out of hot water. It happened, we have a double foul and it's black white in the book how to handle. It. Joe I really agree with what you said in your post. Would make an interesting training tape, but that's how we all learn..

Why would we go to the AP on a double foul, unless the ball is clearly in air? And my contention is if it's that close to call the double foul, chances are the offensive player still has the ball in his hand. That's my problem with OS's post, he's adament about going to the arrow, and that is not correct procedure for a double foul. That was changed last year, or the year before, I'm not sure when, but I know the AP arrow is not the correct call, regardless of how much hot water the crew is in.

You have to go AP if he misses. If he makes it, as you know, score it and resume play with a throw in anywhere along the endline for B.

Only if the ball is in the air before the contact. If the ball is not in the air before contact, then you give the ball back to the team that had the ball when the double foul occurred.

yah there is still team control in the case"hence PC"

1. "Player control" is not required for a pc foul; in the case of an airborne shooter. This is a key difference between the FED and NCAA.
2. A PC foul is not a PC foul when it's part of a double foul; that's why the basket would count if the shot was released prior to the contact (again, a FED difference.)

You are an idiot to post this. The rule clearly says you count the bucket if it goes in and you give it to team B. What happens if the shot doesn't go in you moron? If I count the bucket if it does go in, then I'm sure as hell not going to give the ball back to the offense if it doesn't. That's rule knowledge 101 and I didn't even have to look that up. It's AP you moron. You lose, your way is wrong. Anytime you have a referee screw up like this, you go AP. In the NBA, you go jump ball with any two players on the court. That's the rule dickhead, if you want to call it anyway different, then we will use your tape to show how not to do it.

What an idiot, you must be drinking that same kool-aide JR is on. You guys all think alike. No individual opinions out here, everybody just goes along with the flow. Even if you are wrong, you are so stupid you just continue right on off that bridge, just like the guy before you.

Lets say this situation happens in Mens college game. The ball is released we have no PC. If its made Team B gets the ball along the endline if missed designated spot. Right? Now in mens college in order for it to be a PC foul the player need to have the ball. Let's say he has the ball one goes block other goes charge. Since A1 had the ball we go POI due to team control and have A inbounf the ball. Right?
Correct if im worng please. If so help me with references in the NCAA Book. I would sure hate to kick this if it happens in one my college games.

Thats what I said... do you agree?

Almost right. If the try is already in the air and the officials have a blarge, it is a double foul and possession is awarded with the AP arrow. In that case, Team B may not receive the ball, that one sentence of yours is not correct.

I'm only clarifying here so you don't confuse anyone with this. If the shot has not been released, you will not count the bucket regardless of whether it goes in, and you will give the ball back to the offense.

Also, if there is no shot involved with the block/charge play, you will also give the ball back to the offense.

Oh, and by the way, the post you're responding to didn't get anything wrong. Why don't you point, specifically, to what in that post was said incorrectly. I personally don't see anywhere in the two posts that disagree with each other, so using the word "idoit (sic)" is gratuitous and inaccurate.

thats when we go AP right? This is not like the womens where we shoot.

You don't shoot on a double foul in the NCAAW game either. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/naughty.gif

Hmmmmmm.......

Idiot, moron, dickhead, stupid......not bad.

Calling someone an "idiot" without even knowing how to spell the word is ....well......kinda idiotic imo though. But don't let that stop you.

You go, RecLeague Ronnie. You're wrong again, and you also just tied for the dumbest post ever made in this forum for the 543rd. time. And counting.....

Only you would know JR, only you would know. Don't forget what the wise man said, it takes one to spot one!

Can somebody please, please, dear God, please pull this freaking idiot's account?

He contributes nothing to this forum except confusion and incorrect information. He resorts to name-calling when this is pointed out. He damages this community with every single post.

Please somebody -- Bob, Brad, somebody -- delete Old School's account.

Since "rule knowledge" and "Old School" is an oxymoron, then I'll let you continue to officiate whatever games you do the way that you do. Power to you... I'm just glad I won't ever have to partner up with you in any camps, seeing it's quite evident that you've probably never been to one; and unless you plan on doing the AAU or YBOA Nationals, then we'll probably never be in the same game.

P.S. It's called a rule book and case book for a reason.. You should try and open one up, it's fairly enlightening.

As I've pointed out before, I don't have the ability to do that. I would raise no objections if someone who had the ability did so.

I remembered that after I typed it. Sorry, Bob. I have since sent an email to Brad to express my feelings.