Head coach late arrival to game
 

At the beginning of an AAU tournament game, Team A had only one coach on their bench. With approximately 6 minutes remaining, another adult, coach #2 sat down at Team A's bench. Coach #2 rose off his seat in a demonstrative manner with hands in the air to protest a no-call. A game official gave coach #2 a Bench Technical for violating head coach-box and challenging a referee. Coach #2 insisted that he is the head coach but the official informed him he was not on the bench at the start of the game nor was he in the book as the head coach and there was no communication from coach #1 that coach #2 has become the head coach.

Does anyone know where to find clarification or ruling in our NFHS books or NCAA online?

Please state your opinion and location of your findings.

There's the justification right there for calling a "T", head coach or not. You don't need anything else. Unsporting behavior.

Take it a step further and remove the behavior out of the situation.

What is the appropriate action when the head coach arrives late?

I believe there's also something that states that if the HC is not seated in a seat in the coaching box at the start of the game, he has no coaching box privileges. Somewhere in Rule 10-5. Don't have my book for exact reference. So even if he WAS the HC, he has no box, and therefore, no right to rise other then to applaud outstanding play on the floor.

Too bad he wasn't there at the start. Sounds like he could've got his T early and then a 2nd one so he could go to the snack bar if he did not get there till 6 minutes left and got a T.

The head coach is the coach who verifies that his players are properly equipped prior to the game.

The head coach sits within the coaching box.

The head coach is allowed to stand within the coaching box during the game and coach.

Once the assistant coach acted as the head coach in the above three items, he is the head coach for that game. Nothing else matters. When this guy arrives later, he's just an assistant coach. As such, his a$$ needs to be parked on the bench and his mouth shut.

Great call by the official!

I would advise that you verify which set of rules you are using. Some AAU events use NCAA rules, some use NFHS.


BTW...

10.5.1 SITUATION E: The coach of Team B sits on the opposite end of the bench from where the optional coaching box is located. The coach rises only when permitted by rule. RULING: Legal. The coach is not required to use the optional coaching box even though it has been adopted by the state association. However, if the coach begins the game by sitting somewhere other than where the box is located, he/she may not use the box privileges any time during the game. The coach must begin the game in a position within the box if he/she wishes to stand when permitted under the optional coaching-box provisions. (10-5 Note 1)

Nevada got the rule reference that shows that it doesn't matter whether this guy truly is the head coach or not. Also, as Jurassic pointed out - the action probably deserves a T no matter what.

That said, I've heard this BS before. Once ejected the varsity head coach from a freshman game. When he started going on about how he was the head "of the whole program," I wanted to respond "Good - then you'll know the way out."

I would love to read Old School's take on this play. :D

MTD, Sr.

We already got that when we had a long discussion about me calling a T on an AAU AC for jumping up and yelling "That's not a travel!"

So, allow me to clear my throat and give it a go....

"It ain't about me. It ain't about me. It ain't about me."

Or, you could call the T on the coach, and follow up with, "Don't shoot the messenger, coach, but I ain't drinking your kool-aide tonight."

Or, you give him the OS Stare of Imminent Free Throws (tm).

What he said! :D

The only problem the OP made was he told the coach he got a T because he's not the HC and he can't stand. Why not just tell them the truth. You got the T for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Now, neither one of you can stand. Doesn't matter anymore from this prospective. You invited more trouble by suggesting he got the T because he's not the HC. I can't tell you how many HS varsity games I worked where the HC wasn't there for the pre-game discussion, sent the AC. Happens all the time. However, only one guy is going to stand, and only one guy is going to be questioning my calls, and that guy is the guy I talked to at the start, until you tell me different.

Yes you can. Go ahead. Tell us how many.

I'm guessing none.

Nobody is going to be questioning my calls! They may ask me questions about a call. They may or may not get an answer. BUT dang straight they will always be respectful if they want the same back.

:rolleyes:

Really? The HC for each team has been present for the pre-game discussion at EVERY ONE of my HS varsity games. I have been doing varsity games for the past 8 years and the Head Coaches have not missed one. I have had two JV games where the HC arrived late. It is not my experience that it "Happens all the time." In fact, just the opposite.

Does anybody besides me think this is a ridiculous interpretation? Use of the coaching box for the entire game is determined by where the coach sits at tip-off? That just seems overly-officious to me.

You mean Nevada posted something ridiculous & overly-officious?

No, can't be.

Agree.

Do you know of any official that actually checks to see where the head coach is sitting at the start of the game?

I don't like it.

I may or may not notice where the coach is sitting.

But the rule is in the book, and I know that someone wanted it there.

Agreed....

Why not? Alzheimers?

It doesn't matter where he sits, it matters where he stands if he coaching his team standing.

Last varisty game, coach was attending to some players or whatever he had that needed to be done and he was not at the table for the pregame meeting. In fact, I didn't know the coach for this team so I assumed the AC was the HC. When the game started, you could clearly see who was the HC as he was standing all the time in the box. So I just switched it for him being the HC and it wasn't a big deal. They didn't go back and forward with who's going to stand and so forth. In an AAU game, I would ask if I wasn't sure and enforce the box from that point forward. AC can't stand.

You know what the great thing about havine Alzheimers Disease is?

You get to meet brand new people EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!! :D

Disclaimer: I can tell jokes about people with Alzheimer's Disease cause my grandmother suffered from it for the last 15 years of her life.

FWIY, your grandmother's circumstance does not give you the right to make jokes about a disease my father suffered with the last 2 years of his life.

IOW you're an @sshole regardless of what your grandmother might have told you.

Yes, it does matter. I agree with Scrapper and the others that I don't like the rule as written, but it is a rule, in the casebook 10.5.1 Sit E. In a game situation, I probably won't notice that the coach is sitting out of the box, and I'll end up booting the rule by mistake, but that doesn't change the rule as written.

What OS means is it doesn’t matter where the coach sits because OS doesn’t care about the rule(s). The rules aren't as important as game management, you know.

Any subject about which you need to make disclaimers to a particular forum probably isn't a subject for joking in that forum.

who cares if the HC is a late arrival to an AAU game? in HS this wont be an issue -- and if it does practice common sense and treat the acting coach as the HC until the real HC makes it. Any penalties against the interim HC would carry over to the real HC once he arrives. why make a big deal about such a small thing.

That's why we have the ability to add judgment to any rule, intelligently applying the rules. If you where to enforce this rule precisely as written, you would be wrong. It's only an issue if the coach is screaming about something. Don't look for trouble. Just tell him to get in the box. On the other hand, if the coach is screaming at you and he/she is out of the box after warning them. You have a GO! Green Light! Whack 'em!!!

C'mon bob, lighten up a little why don't ya!! I heard you were showing your wild side in the TOurney chat room the other night. Wish I coulda been there for that.

You heard wrong. I wasn't in the Tourney Chat room the other night, or ever.

Darn it, don't make it sound like you agree with me!

I didn't say I would ignore the rule, or that I would disregard it. I said, I probably wouldn't notice. I didn't mean the not noticing would be intentional.

We DO NOT have the ability to add judgment to any rule. That is not written anywhere in the rule book, or anywhere else. The judgment that we are given is only to see where a certain play or situation fits into the rules, not whether or not to apply the rules. I don't like the rule about not changing the jersey near the bench, but I can't just choose to pretend it's not there. If have to enforce it, regardless of my personal opinions.

1) Because it's not really a big deal. That guy started as HC, and he remains head coach.
2) Becuase it's the rule.
3) Because it's very simple to enforce.

I think where Juulie is going with this is there were other things more important going on that precludes my looking to see where a coach is seated or standing at tip off. I may glance but I am looking at the table and the players to confirm their being ready and whether the toss was straight or ...

I actually don't notice if the coach is in or out of the box unless I'm on that side of the floor and play is near or in the general area of the coach. I had one "T" for being out of the box this year on an assistant who got up following an intentional foul (easy whack) and maybe three "get in the box coach" comments during my season.

Completely wrong according to the recent NFHS Points of Emphasis.

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:...

D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.

Me...and anyone else who works for the same assignor I do...it is a point that was made very clearly that ALL aspects of the bench decorum rules were to be enforced - including that the head coach had to be seated in their box or they had no box...kinda stupid considering how big their box is, but "When in Rome..."

No doubt, you're on top of it!

I (and others) may jog by and say

• "Do you know where you are?
• "...big box tonight."
• "Are you okay where the box is tonight?"

What aggravates me is when a T'd up coach is allowed to continue using the box. :(

Agreed...I was referring to where the coach was seated or where their chair was at before we tossed the ball...once they get hit, they don't get to wander no more.

Girls varsity game early this season. Visitors have two coaches -- a man and a woman. Every action tells me he is the head coach and she is the assistant. We do the pregame with the coaches and he attends; as the the players are introduced, he shakes their hands; first time out by V and he calls it A minute later I see both two coaches standing ... one towards the table; the other at the other end of the bench. At the next dead ball, I tell the man that only he can stand. He tells me that they are "co-coaches." I say they can be whatever they want, but for this game he is the head coach and only he can stand.

Next time down the court, I am the lead, and I see she is standing and coaching. I call a T on her -- as the assistant standing. When I get to the table, my partner and the man greet me. The man says that she is the head coach today and she will stand. He said he explained that to me when I talked to him earlier...I said that he had taken every action possible to prove he was the head coach and for this game, he was the head coach. My partner called me aside and asked me to reconsider the T. Now I feel stuck. The rule, case book and point of emphasis all back me. She was not saying a word to me...she was coaching the players. But now I am told that she is the head coach and I can't penalize a head coach for coaching from the coaching box. So I take the T back. The home coach doesn't like it, but he accepts the explanation....the T was for the assistant standing, but since she is not the assistant, she is acting within the rules.

At halftime, my partner gave me the "Don't go looking for trouble" talk. He may have been Old School for all I know. because he said exactly what OS said (if they are not screaming at you, ignore them...no matter where they are standing.) When I had that team a few weeks later, the man made a point of coming up to me during warmups and saying he would be sitting and she would be the head coach for the game ... but he also gave me the, "No one else has said a thing to us all year" line.

Our District Director this past season (HS, NFHS rules) made it clear that the state directed that the Head Coach must attend the pre-game conference. No questions asked. I know that there could be many circumstances that may come up to adjust this. I did not have any, but I can see some arising. For instance, I had to wait for the book to arrive one night because the coach left it home and his wife was on the way with it. Maybe the coach is single and had to go himself/herself to get it, or a car breaks down, etc. I think common sense prevails here. Things happen. However, if the head coach is in the gym and has no other reason, we are NOT ALLOWED to do the pre-game conference without him/her. I waited on more than one occasion for a head coach to come out of the locker room, bathroom, stands, etc. By doing this, we all know who the HC is and who can stand in the coaches box.

Do you have to look at <b>where</b> the coach is sitting though, Rocky? Are you telling me that your assignor is telling you to take the box away for the whole game if the coach is sitting more than 14 feet away from the 28' line at the start of the game?

If so, your assignor must be a Mariners' fan.:D

Yeah, I know you were, rocky. I could live with that if it was a decree.
But since it isn't I just move 'em back with *those* words.

I did, once, have to mention the rule to a coach.

He was walking to the endline and coaching all the way down. At a time out I asked him what he was doing down there and he told me he was going to his seat. I suggested that surely he was mistaken and that wasn't his seat because of the coaching box/seat rule. He smiled like the cat with the yellow feathers in his mouth.

No doubt that you didn't know that either.

i would have done it different bay but what you did is fine by the books.

after he responded with "co-coaches" I would mention its his choice if they both stand or alternate who stands and coaches and it will be the opposing captain's choice who will shoot the 2 free throws.

now he knows what the penalty will be and its entirely up to him and his "co-coach" where it goes from there. now if trouble comes, it found you not the other way around. btw I can see where your partner was coming from however he was wrong on the time and place. your T was warranted and that should have been a locker room discussion.

That's exactly why the Officials Manual tells you that you should verify before the game exactly who the head coach actually is. It saves any confusion later on in the game.

M&M sez that you're going to Hell too.:D

Verify is not in my manual. But it certainly became SOP for the rest of the season.

Interesting aside....this league has three teams with "co-coaches" but this is the only team that acted this way. The other teams told us -- before we asked -- who was the HC for the game.

Frankly, based on this, I think you're okay sticking with the T.

That was also my thought. You call the T on the female coach, with the explanation that she's the assistant and may not be up to coach. The male coach responds by saying that she's really the head coach, so you shouldn't have called the T on her.

At that point, my response might have been, "You're right. The T is on you."

Manual--Pre-game duties of the R- 105(j) on p.17.

First of all, when did I say that? You gonna have to prove that. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

I'm going to tell you what I would have done here. Once you issued the warning, then you followed that with the T in direct violation of your warning. It ain't coming back. That's my word, hopefully you will remember me saying that. Then again, if you been dipping into that kool-aid that MTD is passing around, that explains it. Afterwards, you turn around and tell them, you don't care who the HC is, niether one of you can stand now.

Now, you say this to your partner in front of the AC at that meeting. Sorry partner, I gave them a warning. Just keep repeating that everytime they say something, I gave them a warning! Who's shooting!

I can't tell if this is right or wrong, it's completely incoherent. Oh, well. What others have said has been useful and instructive. One poster worth of gibberish doesn't have to be a big deal, I guess...

Uh, nope. No alternating. They get to choose, perhaps, but they have to stick with that choice. I'm not having prairie dog coaches.

you misunderstood -- its their choice how they want to act. I cannot make them both not stand or each alternate who stands and therefore. Either way they will be penalized on their actions after they have been explicitly warned.

Ah, I see it now in the post I responded to. Now it makes sense. My work day is done, I need to go home and play with the kids.

Co-Head Coaches are not allowed under NFHS rules. They are not allowed under NCAAM rules. However, they are allowed under NCAAW rules, but any penalty goes to both of them. So if each one gets a T, they both leave.

It's true... It's true...

IAABO does not use the NFHS manual. I found an old one, though, and it says "verify with the head coach that team members" are properly equipped and will exhibit good sportsmanship. Not quite the same as verifying the head coach. In my game, the man I thought was the head coach was asked those questions. He verified that his players would do what we asked.

To clarify, any T charged (directly or indirectly) to either coach is charged against both (it doesn't count twice, however, in reaching the bonus situation). The more proper statement would be that if they combined reach the proper number of technicals, both will be ejected - not that both are ejected after one T on either one.

NCAA 10-10-6:
The head coach or co-head coaches shall be ejected after (a) two
direct technical fouls have been assessed to him, her or them, (b) three
bench direct technical fouls have been charged to his or her team or (c) a
combination of one direct technical foul and two bench technical fouls have
been assessed to him, her or them.

Also, Nevada, I seem to remember seeing somewhere that co-head coaches were only ok in NCAA-W, but I can't find that in the book. Could you point me in the right direction?

I wrote each not either. Perhaps you misread what I wrote. We agree, but you seem to think that I provided incorrect information (which I may have, but only because my NCAA knowledge is not totally current, not because I didn't understand the concept of what the rule used to be).

I remember reading that as well and that is why I wrote what I did about it being specific to NCAAW, but upon performing a quick check just now I can't find it either. Perhaps it was in a past version of the rules. I'll have to do more research on this.

However, I can point out that both coaches are not allowed to stand when there are co-head coaches.
From the 2007 NCAA rules book:
10-11-1

A.R. 213.

Exactly! In my area of the country, the R will introduce himself to both head coaches after he/she has checked the books at the 10 minute mark before the game. At that point in time, not only are you identifying the HC, but you also remind/review the usage of the coaching box. I also use this time to ask the coaches to use a signal for a time out request as well as requesting for a time out verbally. I also make coaches aware of any unusual gym circumstances such as a gym with little or no sideline. If you feel so inclined, this is an opportunity to set the ground rules for coach/ref communication during the game. These few moments can help game management later on.

Seriously? You really do all of that in your pregame? I could see if you are in an old gym that has a restraining line of discussing its usage but I'm not gonna spend that time talking about that or reminding them of the usage of the coaching box.

If the AC comes to the meeting and says, the HC is stuck in traffic or got stuck at work and is on his way - are you going to say he can't coach tonight? I'm not.

In this case - whack the guy for addressing the official in a disrespectful manner and move on.

It was more of a point of semantics (and your way definately made more sense). You wrote 'if each gets a technical foul,' meaning head coach #1 gets T'ed up, then head coach #2 gets T'ed up. I read 'if each gets a technical foul' to mean that head coach #1 gets T'ed up and, by rule, that T is also charged against head coach #2.

I bet there are a lot of guys, standing and questioning your calls! :D

Yes, seriously. We have been instructed in PA to remind the coaches about the box and what it is for. If the HC is stuck in traffic, then I can make allowances for that, but with a 7:30 start, that rarely happens, and in my experience, has not happened to me personally.

When I am at the table at the 10 minute mark, I talk with the timer and scorer, check the books, and then talk the the Head Coaches. I really am in no hurry to finish up and go stand by myself across the floor, waiting for the captain's meeting at about the 2-3 minute mark. But that is my routine. I think it helps me, especially with game management. I am sure each area of the country has their own routine they follow.

Good evening, I'm Juulie and this is my partner DeeAnn. You are each the head coach of your team? Have you met already? (they shake hands and introduce themselves). We need each of you to keep the coaching box in mind, (pause for each coach to affirm) and to help your bench personnel stay within their legal rights (pause for each coach to affirm). Any questions about this floor or this gym? Now I need each of you to ascertain that your players are all legally equipped and will remain so throughout the game (pause for each coach to affirm) and that you are helping them maintain an attitude of fair play and healthy sportsmanship (pause for each coach to affirm). DeeAnn, do you have any thing to add?

Good luck to you both, have a great game!

Under two minutes.

You use "this is my partner DeeAnn" even when reffing with Padgett, right? :D

Well, he gets upset if I call him anything besides Studmuffin, but I have a rough time choking that out, so I usually just skip that part of the talk. Besides in the games that we do together, the coaches all know him. Most have been tossed by him at least once.

And she uses those "air quotation marks" when she says it.

insert smilie of Valley Girl gagging self with spoon

I have been reading this forum most of the year, just now decided to post.
I have been officiating MS, Fresh, and JV for the past 4 years, working on getting some V games. I have never had a good "speech" for the coaches meeting, but I really like yours. With permission I would like to use it during camps this summer and next year. Thanks to all who post on this site. I have learned and lot and had to think some situations through.

Welcome to the Forum, wyo96.

You can send $20 for licensing rights for the summer, and if it works out, we can arrange a long term contract, complete with permission to use the official B.O.O.T. logo. You are required to use the actual name of your partner in each game, though, in place of the word DeeAnn in the sample. Abrogation of this clause will cause your rights to be rescinded, and immediate return of all unused material will be demanded, with no refund of any deposits or fees paid.

PS Welcome to the forum!

Another Pregame Meeting ...
 

wyo96: Here's my pregame meeting:

After intoductions and handshakes, I say, "Coaches, please be sure that your players are properly equipped and that they know how to wear their uniforms properly". Then I say, "Coaches and captains, my partner, Mr. Smith, and I will be emphasising proper sportmanship tonight".

Depending on my mood, I now go to one of two options:
Option #1: "We all (pointing to everybody in the group) have something in common, we all love the game of basketball. Please show respect for the game that we all love by respecting your opponents, your coaches, and the officials"
Option #2: Please note that my partner, Mr. Smith, and I are the only ones in this gym tonight who don't care who wins. Everyone else in this gym, the players, coaches, fans (I point to the crowd), and cheerleaders, want one of the teams to win. Mr. Smith and I don't care who wins. Please keep that in mind tonight as we make calls in this game".

I then ask my partner, the umpire, if he or she wants to add anything. Sometimes, in a girls game, to lighten the moment, I remind the captains that "if you're going to dunk, please don't hang on the rim, because we'll call a technical foul".

Notice that I don't ask for a "spokesman" captain. This was new for me this season. I'll talk to any player, captain or noncaptain, if they address me respectfully. Twenty-five years ago, there were captains or cocaptains. Now, there are tricaptains, quadcaptains, or once this season, quintcaptains. I've had colleagues ask if the "spokesman" captain was starting. This meeting was getting to be too complicated. With the coaches joining the meeting, the group got to be too large, especially with the loud music playing, so now I try to get the meeting over with as soon as possible.

Rainmaker, the check is in the mail.........

Thanks Mick I really enjoy the forum.

BillyMac, another good one to borrow from thanks.

ps. I used the don't hang on the rim line in a MS game this year and the kid looked at me with a straight face and said "I can't reach the rim".:confused:

I love the sincerity of the kids. They so often take things so seriously! Sometimes if a kid will toss the ball to me badly, and I don't get it, they'll come and apologize. Then I'll say, "Well, it may take years of counselling, but I"ll get over it." A few will laugh. Most just look at me blankly. They're not quite sure...

So, is the counseling helping you? :D