Well, the men's season has started, so the real rule experts decided to show up in the gym tonight. And no, I'm not referring to the crew which worked last year's NCAA championship game.

Best "critique" of the game - home team fouls V1 while V1 is in his shooting motion, before the bonus. V1 misses the shot, awarded 2 FT's. The ruling from the stands - it can't be a shooting foul because he "wasn't facing the basket!!"

What other rules don't we know? Find out next week on . . . Wisdom from the stands.

OK, so how does one engage in the usual shooting motion
while not facing the basket? (Innocent question!)

Great title
 

I am already anticipating the next "episode"!

Shots not facing the basket:

*Reverse layup

*Hook shot from the free throw line

those are a couple...

Dude

Had to laugh at this one...
 

We're five minutes into the game without calling a foul. Our first foul is against the home team and someone cries out "Aw c'mon ref call it both ways!"

Re: Had to laugh at this one...
 

<b>Obviously</b> wanted a double personal foul. ;)

In this case, he was backing in toward the goal, picked up the ball (I know - you don't need that for a shot, either) and was about to pivot and release.

With the call it both ways, I had an IM game Monday night. A1 barely taps B1 as B1 is going up for a shot - no call by me. B: "Come on, you gotta call that!!"

Next possession - B2 fouls A2 hard on the shot - obvious foul. B: "Come on, you gotta let 'em play!"

Re: Had to laugh at this one...
 

I've had this happen to me, too. BTW - "Wisdom from the stands" is an oxymoron.

Also BTW - I've heard the word "oxymoron" defined as a coach who breathes.

OK. One of the best calls from the stands I've heard:

While reffing an intense Varsity boys game, my follicley challenged partner hears "C'mon ref, get the hair out of your eyes!"

One of my favorite referee's lines: on a close block/charge call when the disappointed coach questions the call the official said "Hey coach, you should be grateful that I only have two choices on that call. At least this way I am only wrong half the time!"

Late in the second quarter with a 3/4 full gym. I call a foul and the crowd is suddenly quiet as I report the foul. Then clear as a bell a fan yells "Common you gotta call it both ways!". I glance at the score board, 9 and 9. When I look back at my partner we laughed so hard he couldn't administer the throw.

Mike

In my college JV game tonite....
 

we had the visiting team with 7 fouls and the home team with 1. For the record the visiting team was winning by 10 or more most of the game, they were more physical and more talented.

After not calling a foul on either team for about a 10 minutes stretch and we did not call several blocks in favor fouls on the home team end (bad offensive decisions to take on the big girl), we have a winner in the stands say from the visiting team side apparantly, "Doesn't the (home team) foul. You guys are homers."

BTW, the home team lost by 10 and controlled the entire game. And we did not even get in the bonus by for one foul. Fouls at the end of the second half was 7 to 7. But we are hommers. Funny stuff.

Peace

Re: In my college JV game tonite....
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

After not calling a foul on either team for about a 10 minutes stretch and we did not call several blocks in favor fouls on the home team end (bad offensive decisions to take on the big girl.

Wow...

Rut has finally gone over to the wimmen's game too.

j/k

Re: Re: In my college JV game tonite....
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigwhistle

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge After not calling a foul on either team for about a 10 minutes stretch and we did not call several blocks in favor fouls on the home team end (bad offensive decisions to take on the big girl. Wow... Rut has finally gone over to the wimmen's game too. j/k

Do not get it twisted. This is for an assignor that assigns both Men and Women's college and HS basketball. He is the only one that I do this for. He helped me out big time, so I do not mind helping him out with games he needs for substitutions.

Peace

Well, yeah, OK, but unless you're playing H-O-R-S-E then
you're looking at the basket on these, meaning you are
"facing" the basket.

Shot without facing the bucket
 

Well,

Back in the day when I played HS ball, I flashed to the high post and got a pass. I turned toward the middle but got a pretty good push so that I never turned. I threw it up anyway never looking or facing the hoop and got a friendly roll for the bucket and foul.

Of course more traditional methods are the aforementioned reverse layup and hook shot. Certainly, the layup is often attempted without even looking at the hoop. You can tell by some of the results of these shots.

This one from the players on the floor:

A1 is on a fast break with only B1 defending the basket. B1 jumps, A1 picks up his dribble, does a jump step, and uses his arm to push airborne B1 out of the way. Ball goes in, A1 goes to the floor and hits the floor with his hand as if to say "and one!"

The response when I called the PC on A1 - "He was in the air!!"

I really need to practice using Tim Roden's answer - "Yeah, I saw the same thing."

Of course, the players seem to think that "over the back" is a foul.

Friday night:

JV Boys. Kid goes up, rebounds, comes down clumsily and lands on the floor. From the stands: You've got to have your feet on the floor to travel!!

At least I'd never heard it before...

Freshman tournament last weekend.
1st game, offensive player climbs the back of the opponent to get a rebound, I blow the whistle, tell him he fouled and report a push on B22. B coach, at the next timeout, asks if there is an over the back penalty - I say nope, he says then his guy didn't push to get the rebound, just went over his back and why did I call a push.

Next game, visitors are pressing helter skelter all over the court. Whack on the forearm of the dribbler. I blow my whistle and report illegal contact. Coach says the hand is part of the ball. So I agree with him..... point to my hand and say "ball", point to my arm and say "foul".

Twice in the tourney, we have a missed airball rebounded by the shooter. Defensive teams, stands, etc. and coach goes nuts. "He can't do that" I said sure he can, shot attempt, no team control, anybody can get it. His response, "you've never played the game, have you"... I said it's in the rule and case book and asked if he'd read it. He said "I wouldn't be a coach if I hadn't".... so I said "You must have missed that part"

And finally, from the fans in the stands, in consecutive possessions "Cmon ref, they're just HS kid, let em play"... "Cmon ref, call the hand checks".... "Cmon ref, how's that a violation"..... Partner whistle "Finally, a good call on the floor"

Wisdom from the stands
 

More Wisdom from the stands...

Middle school game. Hot dog point guard showing off his dribbling technique dribbles from one side of the frontcourt to the other. Defensive man closely guarding the whole time as I count to five. Tweet. 5-second call. Wisdom from the stand??? How can it be five seconds when the man is moving?

Foul count Team A 4 team fouls, Team B 7 team fouls. One of the A players walks up to me and says call it both ways, So I tell him well if you want me to the the next 3 team fouls are on your team to even it up. Needless to say didnt hear that one again from him.

Re: Wisdom from the stands
 

My favs from this past weekend:

5th grade game: A1 has the ball and shoots a 6' jumper...I hear "3 seconds" from the resident expert strategically seated courtside....A1 rebounds and sticks it right back up...I hear "cmon Ref, 3 seconds".....A2 rebounds and chucks it right back up there....I hear "3 seconds" from B's bench AND from Mr. Expert...DOESNT ANY COACH / RULE EXPERT UNDERSTAND THIS RULE?

Same game: Mr. Dirty Skoal Bandits Cap in a sctatchy whipser tells me as I'm setting up to admin the 3rd Q throw in...."Hey Ref, white is really turning the ball over a lot, you gotta watch that."

6th grade Athletic: A3 gets the ball off a rebound and begins transition....B3 sticks his left arm out to clothesline the guy across the chest....TWEET....I go to the table and call Hold on B3....Mr. B Coach says: "How can that be holding, how can that be holding". I say coach: He stuck his arm straight out and grabbed him. Mr. already losing by about 20 says "Thats not Holding".

And finally:

Same game....A is now thwacking B by 30+....1 min to go....A had called their press off long ago (in this athletic league, they can press even if up 50). They are set up in a 1/2 court 2-3 Zone D....B1 crosses the time line and A1 comes up to guard him as he approaches the arc...I hear from losing team fan: "Cmon, make em take the press off!"

Larks....Hey...Rooks have stories too!

One of my favorites
 

I was doing a college game (relevant only b/c most of the players were a bit taller than me. I'm 5'7".). It was JV, so the gym is pretty much empty. There are 5 guys sitting in the front row, tho. And they are really letting the other team and the officials have it. But I have to say, it was all good-natured. They were joking around and nobody was getting hot about it. They had made comments to me through the game, nothing offensive at all.

Anyway, middle of the second half, home team drives to the basket puts up a lay-up and there's a "slap" sound, but I honestly don't see contact on the shooter (maybe it was between rebounders). But remember the gym's empty, so these guys hear the slap. One of them calls me out: "What's the matter? You too short to hear, too?!?!" I actually got a laugh out of that one myself. They thought it was a riot. :)

Chuck

Wisdom from the stands
 

Larks,

Those are great ones. The Three-second call is so common I think we could mention that every game.

Randy

One of my favorites is when, early in a game, I have two or three close fouls that I (rightly, of course ;)) call against A. Of course, the B bench loves this - "Great call!" "Good job, ref!"

I usually just smile and tell them, "Wait until I call one against your team."

Wisdom From the Bench
 

Two years ago I was calling a game in which the visitors were pretty well controlling the home team. As I called a foul on a home player, the home coach yelled "This is the first time I've ever been homered at home." Someone please analyze that one, please...

Good to know that specatators are pretty much the same all over.

Here's my latest:

Middle School blowout. 4th quarter. Team B fan unhappy with my foul call on his team: "Come on, ref. That was a clean block. Nothing like a little home cookin' eh?"

Team B was ahead something like 28 to 4 at the time.


Sheesh. Fans -- Ya gotta love 'em...:rolleyes:

Well, you know that the way we cover up for throwing games is by calling fake fouls on the winning team . . .

Idiots for sure!

Just a suggestion, guys. I've noticed in some of the posts that we're getting smart remarks from the coach when we verbally report the foul. My suggestion is to not verbalize the foul. You're just asking for trouble and nothing good can come of it. Simply say,

"White, 2-2" while signalling the number.

Then, signal the foul but don't verbalize it.

I have never verbalized the foul. I've also never got a smart remark back like, "How can that be holding?"

Again, just a suggstion.

Last year I was doing a girls tournament. Team A was up 3 with just a few seconds left. B1 takes a 3 pointer and the horn sounds while it's in the air. She gets hacked across the arm on the shot. The shot misses. I call the foul. She goes to the line with no one there and makes all 3 to go into OT (my fault ;) )

Some idiot who had been leaving right up to my foul call runs on the floor and yells at me for being a "homer". At first, I thought he meant Homer Simpson. I just stared at him and said, "Get off the floor, you idiot, before I have you thrown out on your pointy little head. And as for your "homer" remark, each of these teams is from at least 20 miles away from where I live, you giblet-head."

He just stood there and I yelled for the tournament director who just happened to be standing next to a security guard. They came over and "escorted the gentleman" out.

Near the end of first half. Team B ahead by 25. As the clock winds down, bad pass by B1 sails out of bounds. Whistle, everyone looks at clock -- .02 seconds left. My partner is under B's basket at the baseline getting ready to hadn off to A1 for the inbound. Coach B is right by me saying, "What's he doing? He can't in bound the ball -- there's nothing legal that can happen.." and so on. I stared first, and then said, "Coach, let's just get it over with here" He says, "This isn't legal!!" and he's kind of going on and on. He was close to a technical over 2 tenths of a second's worth of a play that had no physical possibility of hurting him in any way.

And in his spare time, he's a ref, too...

Doggone it, it's so hard to write stuff like this now that I know the commissioner of our association is reading this board -- Howard, I'm not tattling, just roamin' with my homies, here in the reffin' hood...

Mark, did you point at his shoes and puke on his pants? I mean, strike that; reverse it.

Juulie, situations like this are when it is best to remind the timer that there is a wonderful little concept called lag time. I remember a JV blowout (home team losing) where one official called a shooting foul against V on the last posession. I actually stopped the clock with :01, although it was probably down to :00.5, and we shot the free throws. By far, the most embarassing moment of my timing career.

wisdom from the stands
 

Last year in a girls' varsity game team A had the ball, team B pressing, and team A was having a hard time getting the ball up the court. A fan in the stands was yelling for a 10 second backcourt violation. By the third trip down the court he was literally jumping up & down on the bleachers yelling "10 seconds, 10 seconds". I saw another fan say something to him (I can only guess what). Not a peep after that. Hey, it was early in the season - maybe he'd only seen boys' games so far. - Kelly

Re: wisdom from the stands
 

Maybe the "Wise" fan told the "uninformed" fan that the 10-second rule was not in effect until all team members had entered the game???? :D

Probably the <b>wise</b> fan explained to the <b>uninformed</b> fan that it was the home team that was not getting up the court and if the ref's were too dumb to remember the 10-second rule, then they didn't want to remind you. (I doubt a fan knew that the 10-second rule didn't apply to girls. Thats giving a lot of credit....)

Re: wisdom from the stands
 

I think I understand... :confused:...however, the 10 second backcourt rule for high school ball applies to both sexes in some states. Well, at least the one I live in.

Sven

"How could that be three seconds in the key? We didn't start our play yet!"

Gotcha
 

I worked an 7th/8th game today where the coach pulled a funny on the other ref Dan. Dan called a kick....the coach asks Dan..."New Shot Clock?"

Dan feezes...seriously thinks about it and then the obvious dawns on him. I just bust out laughing.

But my fav from the night was A's Coach during a time out...."How can we have 7 more fouls called on us than them?" I says "coach, we're just looking advantage gained and have no idea on the foul count" but I thinks "WELL IF YOUR TEAM WOULD QUIT FRICKING FOULING" we wouldnt blow the whistle!!!"

After a couple secs of silence, he pukes on my shoes! Dammit, I just cleaned Jurrasics puke off and now this mess.

Larks - Rookie Shoe Cleaning specialist

wisdom from the stands
 

Sven: I only work in New York, so no 10 second backcourt count. Maybe the fan was from PA/MA/OH/elsewhere? Giving too much credit again. - Kelly

Re: wisdom from the stands
 

Kelly, do you have a shot clock in NY? Is the "no 10 second count" only for girls? You confused me a little, I assumed (I know *** "u & me") that you were talking NCAA women.

Re: Gotcha
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks

Quote:

I worked an 7th/8th game today where the coach pulled a funny on the other ref Dan. Dan called a kick....the coach asks Dan..."New Shot Clock?" Dan feezes...seriously thinks about it and then the obvious dawns on him. I just bust out laughing.

I hope that the "obvious" was "yes". It's hard to tell from your post why the coach's question was funny. Maybe I've just had too much time off from officiating this week.

Chuck

Sat in the stands tonight with a colleague to watch 4 (!!) games in a row of a Holiday Tournament. Heard them all, "Over the back" "She's reaching, ref" "All ball!!" "She can't touch it, ref! (after a rebound of her own air-ball shot)".

After some time passed in the second game, I said, "We've heard them all except three seconds" Of course, the next thing we heard was, "How long is she allowed in the key, ref?" We both laughed a lot.

[Edited by rainmaker on Dec 30th, 2001 at 01:24 AM]

Re: Re: Gotcha
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks Quote: I worked an 7th/8th game today where the coach pulled a funny on the other ref Dan. Dan called a kick....the coach asks Dan..."New Shot Clock?" Dan feezes...seriously thinks about it and then the obvious dawns on him. I just bust out laughing. I hope that the "obvious" was "yes". It's hard to tell from your post why the coach's question was funny. Maybe I've just had too much time off from officiating this week. Chuck

Uhh....no shot clock in 7th / 8th and my partner had never worked college...the funny part is that he was so caught off guard with the question, he froze. Ok, so you had to be there.

Frosh girls game. A1 dribbling and she misses the ball so it bounces about head high and then she resumes dribbling on the next bounce. "That has to be palming ref, even I can see that!"

Varsity girls game. I'm trail on a free throw shot. Shot barely scrapes rim. On the next dead ball I'm in front of the coach.
<i>Coach:</i> "I can't believe you didn't see the airball on the free throw."
<i>Me:</i> "It got a little piece of rim coach."
<i>Coach:</i> "Hey, I'm 40 feet farther away than you and I could see that it didn't hit rim."
<i>Me:</i> Complete silence...quizzical look.

Z

Over and Back Outrage
 

Girls' Varsity:

Team A advancing the ball in the BC. The dribbler moves to the non-tableside of the court away from me (and the opposing coach). At the division line, near the far sideline, the defense sets a double-team trap. The dribbler has both feet across the division line, BUT has not advanced the ball forward of it. The dribbler recognizes the situation and returns to the BC to avoid the "trap".

The opposing coach gets loud, "That's over and back Ref! How can you miss it!"

My quick retort, "Coach, I'll call it when it happens!"

He gave me a perplexed look. As if he thought "I" was in another game.

Really confuse him next time
 

Tell him that it's a delayed violation, and stick out your fist.

Of course, make sure the howler monkey is standing right next to you when you do this ;)

Simpsons example:
Marge: Homer, don't eat any of that pie I just baked.
Homer: I'm just going to go like this (chewing air while walking toward the pie), and if any pie gets in my mouth, it's the pie's fault!

123
 

I'm working a 5th grade tourney game yesterday. This league shoots the FTs from the shorter line so we adjust our 3-sec lane to that line. All game long, I hear 123. Mind you not one hundred twenty three but one-two-three about as fast as you can say it.

"Excuse me Mr. Expert, I guess you are trying to get us to call three seconds?" I thinks.

123

123

This idiot is yelling 123 taking about a half a sec to actually say it.

All the 5th grade teams usually post their center right at this shortened line. All year, all the games I have worked where there is a shorter FT line, we shorten the lane (right or wrong, thats what they told us, so thats what we do)...but since its a tourney I guess all the experts are out in force.

"CMON, HE'S ALL OVER HIM....THATS OVER THE BACK....123"

I love it when an expert attends the game.

Larks - Veteran In Training

Re: Over and Back Outrage
 

In the time it took you to give the retort, you could have said, "Three points on a dribble, coach."

I prefer to explain the rule, if I can in oone or two sentences.

My personal all time favorite.......

"Awwwwwwwww.....c'mon Ref <i>that's</i> gotta be sumthin!!"

I took some TASO applications to my daughters last game and gave them to a couple of dads. Told them that since they obviously had such rules knowledge.....they ought to just go ahead and become a ref......

They didn't think it was funny..........oh well.

Joel

Re: Re: Over and Back Outrage
 

BOB-

I am with you on this; however, this coach had been given explanations earlier. He is also a state-certified official. He was clearly trying to unnerve me (and incite his fans to do the same).

Thanks for your input! :)

I had a very similar situation in a girls varsity game from a group in the stands. Team A is advancing the ball and the girl with the ball steps on the division line but had not completely crossed to gain FC status. She then dribbles back and passes the ball around. The group goes crazy and the coach thought that we missed it. Fortunatly the ball is knocked out of bounds close to that group. I retort quite loudly, "Ok who is the idiot who thought that was back court, you should be thown out for stupidity." Then some of the guys who knew the rule started to make fun of the guys who had said it. Needless to say nothing else came from the stands. You have to love poetic justice!

Re: Re: Re: Over and Back Outrage
 

In that case, I start my explanation with, "As you know, coach, ..." This forces him to admit:

a) He doesn't know, or
b) He shouldn't be arguing "against" the rules.

One of my favourites was when I was a spectator at a NBL game (the Australian version of the NBA). The "expert" behind me was explaining the finer points of the rules to his friend. He explained that if a player gets 5 fouls they are ejected (it's actually 6) and are not allowed to be replaced (like in soccer). Plus if a player or coach gets a tech, then they are automatically ejected and suspended for 2 games (I wish!). As well, he explained that when a team reaches 5 fouls in a quarter, then they are not allowed to substitute any further (WTF?).

On his last statement, I turned around and commented to his friend that it is great that he is now a basketball fan - but perhaps he would like to ask someone who actually knows the rules, rather than the fool sitting next to him. The "expert" then went on to tell me that he knew all there was to know about the game, and that I was just a kid - so what could I know (he was maybe 5 years older than me).

At half time, one of the State assigners came up to me and asked if I was still available to referee the warm-up game the next week before the NBL game was played....funnily enough, the "expert" was very quiet for the rest of the game...