Oden Intentional Foul
 

That was a classic case of an intentional foul, imo, at the end of regulation. And it will cost Xavier the game it looks like.

I would agree with you. I would love to have heard the explanation they gave to Coach Miller on that one.

You just don't call that.

Why? I'll never know.

2 hand push to the floor
 

They only showed the replay once on TV but live that looked to be intentional...2 hand push to the floor and the lead had good look at it. Oden is a big guy but was the official thinking damage control rather than penalizing the obvious? I would like to see it again and would also like to see what everyone else is thinking. Good Post!

I agree that it would be nice to see it again but the actual play and the replay seemed to indicate no attempt to play the ball, just a straight push. These calls never decide games since Xavier had every chance to win in OT but I think they would have had a great chance to win it in regulation had they called this.

Coach he only got pushed into the cameramen. If he would've gotten pushed into the first row, then I would've called it...:rolleyes:

I agree, I would've called the intentional and I'm sure no assignor or supervisor would've given me grief about it.

The actually did show a replay, and it looked worse then the live play. The guy actually got pushed off his feet, meaning he flew a$$ first out of bounds.

and who woulda thought that Oden fouling out would be one of the determining factors, in a positive way, for osu?

He really didn't get pushed, but got blocked (as in football block). No brainer intentional, in my view. I'll concede that if might not have looked as bad on the floor as it did from the TV angle, but it was bad enough. There was clearly no play on the ball.

However, if X makes their last free throw, they will probably win.

I was disappointed at the fact that it was not called intentional. No attempt to play the ball. None. Call it!

John Cahill from the Big East (among others) was the calling official on the foul and they just dont call that foul very often. You got a team that is down wanting to foul and Oden went hard to the ball. Intentional in that situation---I don't know. But I dont have a problem with the simple foul. Still if the guy sinks two free throws, the three pointer doesnt mean annthing.

I was waiting for the crossing of arms. I was surprised the TV guys didn't mention it and only showed one replay.
The Lead worked his last game this year; That was too obvious to miss. Did the crew get together at any point to discuss it? Center might have had something. (Wow, it's easy to call a game from here.)

Just saw an interesting angle during halftime of the MD/Butler game. Camera angle is from the sideline camera sitting on the floor right behind the C official.

Jamar Butler missed the three point shot and OSU's David Lighty got the offensive rebound. As he tries to put it back up, you can see the C official start to raise a fist and then bring it back down. Xavier's Justin Cage gets the rebound and is fouled by Oden. Shoulda been an intentional in my opinion.

EDIT: It was actually the T that started to raise a fist on the Lighty attempt, not the C. Cahill was Lead on this play I believe, and the big black dude, Les _____ was C. Not sure who T was.

I saw that as well. He definitely started to call a foul, but backed off. That won't go over well with the supervisor. Done it myself a time or two. It happens when you get in a hurry.

intentional fouls
 

talk about not calling an intentional. Check the Butler-Maryland game.Last few seconds Butler player gets rebound and moves toward mid court and gets his shirt grabbed and nearly ripped off his back. No call.

In the BTL-MD halftime conversation, Seth Davis excused the lack of an intentional foul call "because it wasn't severe enough to warrant ejection." I expect Packer to not have a clue, but has anyone on-air ever read the rules?

There was to a call. The call was made on the reach, and then the shirt grab came. It was the correct call, cuz he called it on the reach. If he did not call the reach and the only shirt grab, then you'd have an intentional foul.

On that play, the defender actually raked him across the arms before grabbing the jersey. Thus, the non-intentional foul on that one.

Is it me or are we seeing all officials in the tournament more intent on calling the foul in the paint before an entry pass...lots of fouls involving the swim move....but once that entry pass is made and the ball goes up...then they let them rebound.

And one more thing....in answer to MadCIty.....no no broadcaster has ever read a rulebook....save for Bilas....and for that matter...Majerski, the former coach isnt bad with the rules for a former coach.

Majerski? Or Majerus?

MJT, calling a foul a "reach" is the equivalent to calling "offsides" in NFHS football. It's just not done by knowledgable officials. ;)

Neither is "raking across the arm" but we all know what is meant by it. :D I'd say I am a knowledgable official who used "common terminology" instead of "official terminology." ;)

I have noticed a lot of what I would call 'extreme boxing out' on FTs. The inside guy actually turns and pushes with both arms. I have seen it with several teams in the past couple of days.

While it is true that he missed the free throw, as well as Xavier losing a 9 point lead with three minutes to go, I don't think this excuses what appeared to be a fairly obvious intentional foul.

That's great when you're on a coaching forum but this ain't a coaching forum. It is NOT a foul to reach.

I'd say you're basketball coach who should give basketball rules the same respect that you give football rules when you post as a football official. There's ZERO difference.

I suppose. I'll do it just for you BktBallRef. ;)

NEWS FLASH - There's no such thing as over the back either. :)

Gosh, what can I say anymore. All my good stuff isn't real. :eek:

Oden's foul was an intentional foul no matter at what level the game was and no matter at what time of the game it happened. I am really disappointed that an intentional foul was not called and I am a Buckeye fan.

MTD, Sr.

THe go cry somewhere else fanboy. :D

Who said I was crying, just because I was rooting for OSU doesn't mean I don't want the game officiated correctly. It was an ugly foul and made OSU look bad.

MTD, Sr.

Looking at the foul again in the sports highlights, and heading the panel on ESPN's Reporters, I think it should have been called an INT. I believe that this culture of it not being an INT is not in the best interest of the game.

I have noticed a slant towards what should happen instead of what does happen. I have also noticed plenty of over-officiating at times. For instance, Pat Driscoll (I think that is his name) is the Jim Carey of officiating. Waiving off literally nothing after he calls a foul. He would just wave something off when there wasn't a shot and his leg would come off the ground like.....:D

In the Ohio State game in particular, there was a couple of times where a play was right in front of Les Jones (at the L) and a whistle would come from somewhere else. Forget about getting a call right, I know he was wondering what was going on.

http://www.1530homer.com/cc-common/m...1174223885.jpg

"I just look at that foul as, they’re going to call bull crap fouls," Oden said. "I might as well get one that’s hard."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn6CyCuFkgw

Video of the push

Intentional foul - no question now.

I think the mere fact that Oden himself said it was intentional is enough for me.

So...is it still "you just don't call that"?

He kicked it, plain and simple.

I only work football, not basketball, but what I loved was the comment by one of the studio announcers that he was going for the ball. What, with his forearms and elbows?

Don't be so quick to judge! Read the YouTube comments. The Ohio State fanboys do a GREAT job of explaining why it wasn't an intentional foul.:rolleyes:

Just another aspect of this that I haven't heard anyone say anything about. it might be meaningless but on the youtube video you can see the Lead point his right hand at the play when it looks like Oden contacts the Xaviers players arm after he got the rebound. He raises his right arm but there was no whistle and no left arm raised and then he drops his right hand. Then the push comes and the whistle and foul is called. I guess it's hard to say but it looks like he saw the contact on the rebounder's arm and had a notion to call it but passed. And then the push came. Anybody see it like that or what do you think the first point by L was about? It might be meaningless but I just noticed it and was wondering.

Even if they called some initial foul first, then you should go with the intentional technical after that. That's an easy X and borderline flagrant at the high school level. IN HS, I'd probably call the X and tell his captain to settle him down.

I think it was intentional BUT I also think that if X does any one of 4 things they win:

1 - dont turn the ball over in the last min of regulation on a throw in. (and then foul the layup!!)
OR
2 - Cage makes his last free throw
OR
3 - Run a bigger lineup to get better pressure on the last shot in regulation.
OR
4 - Foul with 3 seconds left putting OSU on the line for 2 when they are down 3 and take your chances.

Course - thats not the point of this thread. I think the point of "its intentional except under conditions A B or C" is an awfully slippery slope.

Just another couple of comments - if you watch the position of the L, he ends up inside the lane, and I believe he and the C were probably straight-lined on the push. It's very possible neither one saw the actual push, only the result of the player going OOB.

Also, and this might belong in the Stupid Announcer Comments thread, Jay Bilas was on the radio this morning and mentioned he thought the Xavier player flopped. Hmm, maybe <B>that</B> explains why the intentional wasn't called. :rolleyes:

Hmm . . . and where did Bilas go to college?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqPBJ_6y_5A

Late in the UVA/Tenn game. UVA needs to foul but UT breaks the press and UT big man gets ball under his basket, pump fakes UVA's Jason Cain into the air and UT player takes a step to the side. Cain grabs the rim with both hands and then lets go with left hand and attempts to block shot and ends up fouling UT player.

I was wondering why no 'T' was called on Cain.

I saw it, too. My guess is that because there was a man underneath him, the officials thought he was trying to prevent an injury.

Actually, that isn't true. If the player would NOT have grabbed the rim he would have drifted to the other side of the rim and the offensive player would have had an uncontested layup.

It should have been a T.

While I like the idea of a T on this particular play, I disagree that it should have been one.

While we could see from the replay that he may have drifted away from the other players, he doesn't necessarily know that. The fact that there was a foul when he was still in contact with the rim is all I need to know to not call the T for grabbing the rim...if he was close enough to another player to foul them, they were close enough for him to hang onto the rim for safety.....and it wasn't like he held on for a long time.

Still, I think he deliberately held on to the rim for an advantage...but that is not part of the rule.

10-3
A player shall not:
5. Illegally contact the backcoard or ring by:
(a) placing a hand on the backboard or ring to gain an advantage.

The player wasn't looking to prevent injury, he was looking to the ball, methinks.

He was moving one way and hanging on the rim stopped his momentum so he could remain in the play. You can easily apply the rule Mick quoted above.

While the injury prevention question is certainly not conclusive, the rule you now quote is sufficient....I can agree with that.

The only thing I could imagine is that refs didn't see it, they didn't feel an advantage was gained, the personal foul occurred before an advantaged was gained, or that they felt the personal foul sufficiently penalized the situation.

No way did it cost them the game. They had a 9 point lead late in the game and let it slip away. THAT is what cost them the game.

Well it sure as h-e-double toothpicks didn't help matters. It was a contributing factor.

A classic 'blame the ref' comment. They did not take care of bidness. They had 'em on the mat and let 'em back up.

Using that mindset seems quite commonplace.
I have not noticed (m)any last minute ballsy calls that were not assisted by the monitor. :)

Courage is something that very few officials have. The best officials have it, and I'm not talking about tournament officials, because based on my observations of situations this weekend, I didn't see any of it on display. What I did see was an inordinate amount of calls outside officials' primaries. Basically what these guys are saying is that they're better than the mechanics and floor coverages. Contrast that with the women's tournament and compare how many calls are outside their primaries. The ratio has to be at least 10 to 1. I know for myself, I'm just not good enough to get plays right all over the floor. I guess someday I can be as good as Jim Burr and be successful at it.

So, according to you, the NCAA officials working in the tournament not only are terrible, they also lack balls too.

Would you mind telling everybody exactly what <b>your</b> qualifications are to completely denigrate the accomplishments of what the NCAA has determined to be the best officials available? Are you currently working at the D1 level? Have you <b>ever</b> worked at the D1 level? Are you currently evaluating for a D1 conference?

Or, as is probably more likely, maybe you're just another back-stabbing, integrity-free clown that's full of jealousy because you're not good enough to be working at that level.

When someone like you dumps on every single official working in the NCAA tournament, it kinda makes you wonder what we're dealing with. We expect that crap from fanboys. We don't expect it from people who actually profess to be an official. If you really are an official, you've got one helluva lot to learn about integrity imo.

JR, I don't want to get in the middle of this, but I have a question for you. When talking amongst "family" or a group of officials, do you think we should have unconditional support?

Yeah. I can imagine Lead looking at the contact [not the rim] and Center not getting a good look.
There surely was some stuff happening on that play.

But then, by choosing an applicable rule, we were only playing: "What if we had had a great look". ;)

Whatintheheck are you talking about-"unconditional support"?:confused:

Every official misses a call every now and then. Every official has a bad game every now and then too. But when someone says that <b>EVERY</b> single D1 Mens official in the tournament is terrible, and <b>EVERY</b> single official also lack guts to boot, then they're damnwell going way too far imo. That might be the most asinine statement that I have read on this forum, this side of Old School. This clown has got a history of crapping on D1 officials too, going back to last year's tournament.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...969#post297969

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...396#post299396

It doesn't bother me when someone craps all over an official because they obviously don't like them. Case in point- you and Steve Welmer. But when you crap on <b>ALL</b> D1 officials in the tournament, then that's just plain stoopid imo. I certainly wouldn't want someone like him as a partner, fer sure. I'd be afraid to turn my back on him.

Note the "imo"--"in my opinion".

Let's exhale............repeat after me, "WooooooSaaaaaa." :D :D :D

Now I know how you feel.

Oh, for the record Welmer isn't my least favorite D1 official. My opinion of him has to do with what I consider not making anything but the most ultra-obvious calls. I don't think I have ever said anything about him getting those calls wrong. There is an official who goes farther than him in the tournament every year that makes some horrible calls. I guess I see what you are saying since I have rarely even mentioned this official's name.

It ain't about <b>individual</b> officials, Tom. It's about someone who is supposedly an official saying there aren't <b>ANY</b> D1 Mens officials out there with the balls to make the tough call. <b>NONE!</b>

Now, you being a Teddy V. groupie(:D ), how does that statement strike you? Do you agree that ol' Teddy doesn't have the nuts to make a tough call? That's patently ridiculous, isn't it? Note---you can insert <b>any</b> D1 official's name above in place of Teddy V. That's because according to socalreff, <b>ALL</b> D1 Mens officials working in the tournament lack courage. Well, that's just wrong coming from someone who purports to be an official.

It WAS an intentional foul. The officials didn't call it. It happens a LOT in basketball. It's easy to blame the loss of a game on officiating (yes the officiating sucked and it went in Xavier's favor for the majority of the game)

Oden rarely gets a call go in his favor...such as this one at the end of the game:

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2206/picture2gh0.jpg

Should that have been a foul?

This "fangirl" saw the game, winced as Oden pushed whatshisface out of bounds and waited for the intentional call. It didn't come which was a shock to me since they were calling everything else all day.

But did he make both free throws? No. Would the game been out of reach if he had? Yes.

Did Xavier blow a 9 point lead in 3 or so minutes? Yes.

Did Xavier fail to show up in overtime? Yup.

If the situations were reversed, you can bet OSU fans would be up in arms, complaining just as Xavier fans are, but the end result remains...the only thing that "non-call" gives Xavier fans is another reason to hate Thad Matta when it wasn't the officiating who lost that game for Xavier...it was Xavier.

Talk about being misquoted... I never said none of those officials had courage, because I know some of them personally. All I said was that I hadn't seen it. It's not like I'm watching every play of every game. I apologize for the misconception.I should have specified that based on some of the calls and no-calls I've seen, it seems the officials didn't make some tough calls that could have been made, ie: the Oden play, the Cain play. Most of my post had to do with officials calling all over the place. It just makes one wonder if plays are getting officiated within their own primaries if they're offficiating someone else's. If you watch Burr's 1st round game, 50% of his calls were in front of a partner.

While Oden watched from the bench, it should be noted.

Were there other factors contributing to Xavier's loss? Of course. But that seemed to be a blatant intentional foul--to stop the clock and force Xavier to shoot--and it wasn't called. Ohio State gained a huge advantage with that call not being made. Now the clock is stopped, and Xavier will not get the ball back as well. Did the one call (or lack of) "cost" Xavier the game? Not in the general sense of mistakes made during the game. But, failure to get that call right gave Ohio State every advantage it was seeking. 2 shots AND the ball is a big difference then just 2 shots.

I also believe that if that fould had happened at a different point in the game it would have been intentional for sure. But since everyone "knew" OSU had to foul, they passed on it.

You've got to be quick. The NCAA had the video removed.:(

sigh...

I give up.

CBS has their version up. The foul occurs at the :50 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdK4qdJXGbU

Got it, thanks.

As for the "afraid to turn my back on him" statement: You wouldn't have any fear ever of me saying anything about you to someone else that I wouldn't
1st say to your face. You would always know what I think. I will never say, "Good job to your face" and then tell someone else how bad I think you are, or even worse tell an assignor. I know plenty who do that, which to me is much worse. If someone tells me that I stink and tells someone else too, I have no problem with that.