During a NFHS game with arch rivals competing, player from Team A has a breakaway layup, by himself, and out of the crowd comes a "crazed" fan from the opposing team and literally "tackles" the player from Team A before he gets off the shot or layup attempt. What is the ruling? Technical Foul? Count the basket? Both?

We're probably breaking some new ground here but....

1- Credit A1 with a basket. NF 2-3

2- Have the fan ejected from the building.

Quite honestly, we have no way of knowing who this person is or which team he really pulls for. We have to be very careful when we start assessing Ts for fan conduct. I would probably not give a T.

How about having the idiot arrested? If there is a police presence there, have the guy hauled away in cuffs - we're basically talking assault here...

True, but we also have no way of knowing if A1 would've made the basket. Kids miss wide open lay-ups all the time. I honestly don't think I would award the basket. I would be much more inclined to assess the T. If the "tackle" was deliberate, then the tackler must be rooting for Team B. Right? There's no way a fan of Team A would stop A's fast break on purpose (unless A1 stole the fan's girlfriend, or something). I think I would have to give a T to Team B (not to the Coach), two shots for A and the ball.

Chuck

dont know if they could be arrested for assault ( depends on jurisdiction) but I would hope they filed one serious civil action for battery and go for damages and injuntctions up the wazoooooo!

If giving them the basket became the "standard" on such a situation, I could for see a fan of A running out and tackling A9, who happens to be a poor shooter ;), in order to make sure they got the 2 points.

As much as I would like to award the points, I don't think we can or should award 2 points. A team T would probably be the only justifiable option.

Need something to "hand your hat on" to justify the T? How about an unauthorized player on the court? You know he's not in the scorebook and he certainly doesn't meet uniform requirements. Plus - if they argue against it, hit them for 6 players on the floor. :)

Don't know how you could award points. It may be the right thing to do, but what rule could you use as backup and reasoning?
Do you have knowledge of what team the fan supported?? If you do, what rule would back up a T either way?

Hind sight is always the best vision. Blow whistle and stop play. Have game management remove the fan immediately.In handcuffs by the police would serve the purpose of crowd control. Call both coaches together and explain that there really is not a rule to cover such a situation. (They may quote you several, but I doubt if they are in a rulebook) Expect an earfull from Coach A. Give ball out of bounds and play on.

I think Don is right. You cannot award points because you thought the player would probably make the shot. You also cannot penalize a team for a fan you think is cheering for them. As much as coach might disagree, you have to go with ball to team A, and make sure the fan is removed.

I cited the rule in my post. I'm not sure if it would be feasible or not. It is specifically allowed under NF football rules. The referee can award a TD in cases where a runner is interferred with by a non-player. While it's not specifically addressed in basketball, I wouldn't be too quick to discount the possibility.

If I'm not crediting A with the basket, then I'm definitely going to have a T.

I can most definitely assess a T for the fan coming onto the floor and interferring with the play.

2-8-1
Penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant or follower.
NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized.

So I'll officially change my answer. Don't credit the basket but we definitely have a T.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

... So I'll officially change my answer. Don't credit the basket but we definitely have a T.

Hey wait, come on now! I actually like your original
idea of awarding the 2 pts and not going with the T. I
can't imagine not being able to convince a coach it's
the way to go. Of course if he disagrees I'll tell him
the other option is to go with the T :)

I said from the beginning I was breaking new ground!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: ... So I'll officially change my answer. Don't credit the basket but we definitely have a T. Hey wait, come on now! I actually like your original idea of awarding the 2 pts and not going with the T. I can't imagine not being able to convince a coach it's the way to go. Of course if he disagrees I'll tell him the other option is to go with the T :)

I liked it too and I'm still not sure it's not the way to go. But I wasn't getting much support. :(

How about we tell him if he doesn't like us counting the basket, we'll count the basket and call the T? :D

Re: I said from the beginning I was breaking new ground!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: ... So I'll officially change my answer. Don't credit the basket but we definitely have a T. Hey wait, come on now! I actually like your original idea of awarding the 2 pts and not going with the T. I can't imagine not being able to convince a coach it's the way to go. Of course if he disagrees I'll tell him the other option is to go with the T :) I liked it too and I'm still not sure it's not the way to go. But I wasn't getting much support. :( How about we tell him if he doesn't like us counting the basket, we'll count the basket and call the T? :D

Now why didn't I think of that?! And when he flies off the
handle we'll get him again! :eek:

I have a problem with both giving the basket, and calling a T for several reasons:

1. The player might have missed the basket. (Or the shot clock expired, or an off the ball foul, or a myriad of other possibilites).

2. Can you guarentee that the spectator was supporting Team B? Here are some other possibilities:
i) Has personal grudge against that player
ii) Was drunk/high/just not-quite right in the head
iii) Doesn't follow Team B, but supports Team C which needs Team A to lose to make the finals.
iv) Supports Team A and hopes that the refs will grant the basket/call a T.

IMHO I believe the only action that could be taken, within the rules, is to stop play, reset the shot clock and grant a throw in to Team A. At this point it would probably be a good idea to explain your ruling to both coaches. Have the spectator removed, eithered by court management, or by security/police.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't it state somewhere in the rule book that we are not to award points in basketball?

Just wondering

Dude

Points are "awarded" by rule for basket interference and
goal tending. As of tonight they are awarded by convention
when a fan runs out of the stands and tackles a player on
a clear breakaway! :)

Reset the shot clock? Why in heavens's name do that?!
If you're gonna do nothing then do nothing.

I agree with your principle, although from the rule book I'm not sure it's legal. Let's get you onto the committee so when it happens to me, we can give the points.!!!

Under FIBA rules (feel free to heckle now :)) if the referee's stop play for any reason that is not caused by the offensive team, the shot clock is to be reset. Some examples are: injury to any official, change of ball due to it deflating, replacing equipment (whistle, hoop etc).

The reasoning is that the offensive team has been inadvertently punished by the stoppage, as they may have had the defense on the "back foot", so they shouldn't be punished further by allowing the defense to reset itself, and by playing with less time on the shot clock.

Personally I think it makes a lot of sense.

Whoa. You mean there's actually a case play for when a ball
deflates during play??? Man, you guys are good!

Anyway, I don't like it. Potentially gives the offense an
entire new shot clock period they did not earn.
Disadvantage to the defense.

Wait, wait, wait. This is Tony's idea, not mine! Let him
sit on the committee! But you have my permission to use
this new rule whenever "crazy Joe" decides he's gotta be a
part of the game. If they don't like it T 'em all up! :)

I suppose the issue is whether it is better to possibly disavantage the offense or the defense. For example, say there is 3 seconds left on the shot clock, and the referee dislocates a knee and can't contiue. Play is stopped and the referee replaced. Should the shot clock be reset? (FIBA says yes). Now in this situation there are two possibilites:

1. The defense has spent the last 21 seconds playing great "d" and it looks like it is unlikely that the offense would have got a "decent" shot off. Resetting the shot clock clearly disadvantages the defense.

on the other hand:

2. The offense has just successfully broken the defensive pressure, and the stopage of play has allowed the defense to regroup and probably hold out for the next 3 seconds. Here the offense is obviously disadvantaged.

There is no easy answer, and it would be a nightmare to call on a case-by-case basis, therefor FIBA has ruled that in ALL cases, the shot clock gets reset. This goes with the general principle that the offense has the benefit of the doubt in most cases.

I would like to know how everyone else would handle such a situation, as by the sounds of things, the NFHS/NCAA rules don't cover this.

I have done some college level games but now just do H.S. boys basketball games. We don't have a shot clock for H.S. boys so therefore I wouldn't have to worry about reseting anything.

But, if we did have a shot clock I would have to agree with Oz...Reset the shot clock, Have the jerk that tackled the player removed from the gym,
Give the Team that was offended the ball for a throw at the spot of the "foul", and play on.

Dan

P.S.
I would almost bet that I'll have a ball deflate before I have someone come out of the stands and tackle a player going for a lay up. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanIvey

Quote:

... P.S. I would almost bet that I'll have a ball deflate before I have someone come out of the stands and tackle a player going for a lay up. :)

Hey Dan, what happens if someone comes out of the stands
and deflates the ball??!! :D

Just a suggestion...
 

Don't pose the question. If you think that's true, look it up and post the reference. Don't ask someone to find evidence to back up your stand.

Actually Happened!!
 

For those of you who are sceptical concerning the fan tackling a player on a breakway layup, it actually happened in a NFHS game. I was not on the game but spoke to the offical who was.

Maybe this was the same gym that the Coach carried the gun.
now we know why !!!)

Too bad we can't have a penalty layup like hockey. Give em the ball at the Division line and with everybody watching, see if they could make the layup.

I think you have to tell the coach, sorry but we'll give you the ball back and hopefully you'll make a 3 pointer.

What if Johnny is going in for a layup and his litte 3 year old brother comes running on the court to greet him or rolls his ball in from of him. Are you going to penalize a 3 year old?. Then you have him crying and a Mom upset at you.

I hate it when young children roll a ball on the court during the game....

SAME PLAY WAS JUST ON ESPN.
 

This same play was just on ESPN last week. The only difference was that on a fast break the player ran over the ballboy who was out wiping up some water that was on the floor. Did anyone else see this highlight??? I just heard about it and didn't see it myself and have no idea what the Ref's decision was. If anyone else saw this please let us know what the outcome was. It happened in a D-1 mens game.

Re: SAME PLAY WAS JUST ON ESPN.
 

Just saw it on tonight's news. The game was Atlanta at Cleveland, Atlanta goes for the layup, bumps into the ballboy, and made the layup - so all we have to go on is a "no-call."

If he/she is on a break away...how would the shot clock expire? However, I think that is all you can do...I don't see where the justification is in giving a T and we can't determine whether or not he/she would have make the basket.

Dead ball...make sure the player is all right...OOB endline. Just to make things interesting, fan comes running on floor...A1 hits him after being tackled. What do you do? I surely don't blame him for swinging at the guy. :) Thoughts?!?

-Hodges

Fighting is defined (but not limited to) attacking an opponent. If the guy on the floor can't be given a T, he's not an opponent, and is fair game :)

We had a thread here earlier this year where a starter hit one of his own players for not giving him the ball. T was given to that player for fighting. He is obviously not an opponent.

I'd be more inclined to T the player fighting with someone in the stands. If two guys from the same team are going at it, I leave that alone.

Re: Just a suggestion...
 

Well excuse me Mr. BktBallRef...I thought this was a discussion board where people come to ask questions, pose questions, deliberate about questions and then let the memebers give their opinions. You know..."opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody's got one."

How do you know I didn't look all through the rule book trying to find an answer to my question. You "assumed" I didn't...and we all know what "*** u me" means.

Just a suggestion...but if a Rookie asks you a question...don't belittle him/her, help him/her find the answer. Other Rookies listening may learn from all your wisdom and experience.

Dude
P.S. Don't worry fellow officials, I will continue to ask the "stupid" questions at the risk of looking lazy to certain pompous officials. (Gee, I hope I spelled "pompous" correctly...I was too lazy to look it up in the dictionary):)

It didn't seem like a question as much as "That's not right, I think it's in the book, find it for me." No harm was meant. Just advice. Take it, leave it, or become defensive. It doesn't matter, it's up to you.

A Certain Pompous Official

As far as I'm concerned you have a new name my friend! :eek:

I've been called worse, like Todd! :rolleyes:

How many damn times do I have to say I'm sorry?The flowers are in the mail!I'll never do it again.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 2nd, 2001 at 07:07 AM]

:D

You HAVE to be joking
 

Mark, please tell me you're joking! If anyone on a team throws a punch during a game, whether it be at an opposing player, coach, official, fan, or team mate - then they get tossed. There are NO exceptions. To the best of my knowledge this applies at all levels of the game (and most other sports - excluding ice hockey, oh an boxing :)).

If for nothing else, you have to toss them for unsportsmanlike conduct or "bringing the game into disrepute".

Well, how about this:

Team A inbounds ball in back court, Team B is pressing. B2 knocks ball out after TeamA has reached an 8 count in the backcourt. If this happens three times, then the shot clock would be down to anything from 10 or less. Team A breaks the press, has a fast break...etc...etc

I know it is improbable, but it is possible.

Re: You HAVE to be joking
 

Yes, Oz Ref, if a player threw a punch at anyone, he/she would be ejected. (Especially in the intramural leagues I ref - the players argue with their teammates more than their opponents at times!)

Phew...
 

For a moment there I thought you were suggesting that teamates fighting shouldn't be penalised.

Re: Phew...
 

What I might not do is charge the player with a technical foul - I don't know if I would give team B the chance for points in a case like this.

Re: Re: Phew...
 

If you're not going to call a T, then what are you going to call?

Just DQ them with no free throws - I'm not sure if it is in the rules, but this could come under the section that was discussed in a previous post about "situatitions not covered in the rule book".

It doesn't work like that. We can't do things just because we want to, as this situation is covered by the rules. If you're going to eject them or fighting, then you have to call the necessary T fouls.

Mark-
I understand your theory about not wanting to give free throws to team B becuase two Team A players were fighting. But isn't this the same as Team A coach swearing at the officials. I assume you would give him a "T". Either way, it is Unsportsmanlike Conduct. In both cases, what took place did not directly involve Team B, but rules say they will benefit from Team A's actions. Just a thought.

Under the "Basketball Rules Fundamentals" No. 7 reads.....The only infractions for which points are awarded are goaltending by the defense or basket interference at the opponent's basket. You can not award points in this instance.