Jim Burr
 

What Happened In His Big East Game Today To Cause The Vet To Lose His Super Cool!

I'm at work, I didn't see the game. What did you see?

I checked the game recap on ESPN.com and didn't see any mention of fireworks with the officials. What happened in the game for those of us that didn't see it?

apparently he was supposed to work with Jon Diebler however due to the unforseen circumstances from last November Mr. Diebler could not work the game. Jim still has not gotten over that apparently.

Are you serious? Burr gave the Nova coach a well-deserved and basically run-of-the-mill "T". The incident was hardly worth mentioning. Saying he lost his "Super Cool " is a super ridiculous statement. He just took care of bidness.

You don't get out much, do you?:D

I guess no one saw him cussing his partners!

If Burr gives a T is was earned. He just doesn't throw them out. So what happened last year with Diebler?

JR will have to field this one as I still get choked up over it...:(

How do you <b>know</b> he was cussing his partners? Please share the details of that conversation with us, if you don't mind.

AWWWWW It's so good to see the old seasoned vets, who are in 30+ years of experience club, stick together.

By the way, I could care less about Jim Burr as an official who gets plays right, cause I think he gets just a few more right than Steve Welmer (who doesn't get many) but I respect the man for what and how has contributed to the game and for the many yrs. of service he has provided. I believe he is truly a legend in the officiating community and should be in the hall of fame when and if he ever retires.

nice back handed compliment...

I kinda stole the back-handed compliment from Jim Rome. He says to "always have a take" on things and so I do, and that is it. Jim has been an asset to the officiating community for many years, but I feel his, along with quiet a few others time are up, and now he just needs to retire, wait his couple of years to get on the hall of fame ballot and get in.

Great. A clone.

Yup, gotta make room for the new breed that don't know or understand the rules and also like to make up some of their own rules--like calling automatic blocks on secondary defenders who have LGP, or "T"s for slapping the backboard while trying to block a shot. Jmo, but I don't think that Burr, Welmer or any other D1 official currently breathing is gonna lose any sleep worrying about <b>you</b> replacing them at any time in the forseeable future.

Other than being an official that (supposedly) just finished his very <b>first</b> year of high school ball, do you have any <b>other</b> qualifications that would enable you to so accurately judge the competency or lack thereof of top-level D1 basketball officials?

I agree, Jim is an awesome official and he looks like he's in great shape for his age. Far as you talking about officials making up their own rules. I've seen Jim do a few non-standard things too. When you see guys at the top of the profession doing whatever they want to do when it comes to mechanics. The message is not strong that the officials below should follow the rules to the letter either, imho.

Nice dig at Welmer.

If he wasn't at the top of his game, he wouldn't get hired anymore.

Jim Burr's T was just the normal run of the mill T. If he is chewing anyone out he is chewing out the "C" in the Nova game who called a marginal offensive call directly in front of Burr. If its a big game and you get Burr in it I think that one should feel comfortable that the right call is going to be made. I don't get why he is so maligned.

He's maligned because he's on TV all the time, so he has a high percentage of visibility for all of us peons to critique. More media games and plays equals more you get wrong publically.

Burr.....etc.
 

Also, they would have a much better chance of getting more plays right if they wouldn't call across the key all the time as Lead. Half the time I'm watching, it seems like they don't know there is a Center on the court.

What an incredible idiot to look up to. You're mother must be so proud. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...images/wee.gif

You've got a helluva lot to learn.

I suppose if you get paid by the word it makes sense to "always have a take" on things.

Of course, it also makes makes to speak as if there's more than half a brain behind the sh1t that comes out of your mouth.

Oh my.

It IS that time of year again, isn't it? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't worry about me coming to steal one of there spots anytime soon either. I don't even know if I will ever even get to work a Div. I game ever.

And as far as Welmer being at the top, I don't know if Gerald Bodreaux hired him this year, but I heard John Guthrie fired him when he was the Supervisor of officials cause he didn't think he could get a play right (don't know if that is entirely true, but I can see it being logical)

Oh, let's hold the SEC assignor up as a great indicator of how good an official Welmer is.

Then let's all laugh out loud.

He has sent more guys to the NBA through his umbrella system then you will ever know.

Some of us don't hold the NBA as the ultimate ideal. Matter of fact, I haven't watched an NBA game in about 5 years.

If I'm turning on an ESPN and seeing Burr/Welmer 5-6 nights a week, it's a good indication that these are the best guys. Commissioners aren't going to put their necks on the line for guys they don't trust. There's an old saying that "you don't get fired for buying IBM." Well, you won't get fired hiring Burr and Welmer. They're too solid and I can't remember a ****storm ever coming down in one of their games.

The only ****storm I remember with a big time, regular official is the Valentine/Knight incident.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying now. I think Burr and Welmer are good... at managing the game, but as far as getting plays right they could never touch an NBA official.

Maybe you don't hold NBA refs in such high regard, but I think when you ref the highest level, at the highest stage, with the best athletes in the world and have a 94% accuracy rate that's dang good in my books. You might disagree with that, but I just do not believe that get near that many plays right.

What is right? Every foul call is subjective -- was there advantage/disadvantage to the point where the official decided to call a foul?

I live in Big 10 territory and the officials let the players play. It's a very physical league. How could you possibly say those officials are right? Or wrong?

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! :D Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.

Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything. There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid! :D

Are you seriously comparing college officials to NBA officials? I'm not knocking the NBA guys because they are calling the game the way they are told to (I assume), however, the blatant rules violations and fouls that are never called puts nearly and college or top high school official above NBA guys IMO. I rarely watch NBA ball for this reason.

Read my post again. I never once said that I sided with Knight. I have great respect for Ted Valentine and think him a top official. I just said the only ****storm I remember involving a top official was that one.

I prefer Welmer's officiating style to many others, actually. Then again, I don't like watching a parade to the free throw line. Never have.

Watching the game tape afterwards. This is what the officials do in the NBA and I do believe they make more money. If these guys are working every game they can possibly get, they don't have time to review the game before. In the NBA, reviewing the game tape afterwards is apart of their normal routine.

I agree, these guys don't get very many plays right but they are excellent at managing the game and the big ego's. Isn't that what it comes down to, who manages the game the best? This has nothing to do with how good you are. As far as IBM is concerned, you're right, but IBM is no longer the big dog either and the reason why is, they refused to change.

Hired for different reasons? Sure. Working 110 games in a year? That guy is doing something right in someone's (actually 9-10 assignors') eyes.

Can you name those 9-10 assignors? Dale Kelly will only count once! I have heard he is a great guy and fun to be around. But that doesn't make a great official and I thought that is what we are talking about. I also know for a fact he makes his own schedule, literally.

I know you like his officiating style, but I have a question for you. Do you think Welmer is a great basketball official? If so, do you think part of being a great official includes avoiding or not recognizing tough calls and putting air in the whistle? Does being a great official, at any level, include doing what is right for the game regardless of who it pisses off? Can officiating be about doing right by the game AND an official's primary source of income without sacrificing one or the other?

But now that you force me to think about it a bit more, I've never been one to shy away from making an unpopular/difficult call and it's cost me a conference in the past 2 years. Before you cry for me, losing this conference was the best thing to happen to me as the closest school was about 80 miles away and I had to deal with crap every other game I worked in the conference.

My criteria on TV is different. I like seeing familiar faces. I can learn how to run a game from guys like this. I don't really care about how great they are technically. Although I'll never be able to do a jump ball like Welmer -- holding it up with one hand and essentially dropping it. Course I'm not 6'10", either :)

I'm not really a Welmer fanboy, although I enjoy watching him work. Don Rutledge? Now I was a fanboy of him, but mainly cause he said hi to me before a few Tennessee games when I went to school there. And cause he took absolutely no crap from anyone.

if there are many
 

If there are many D1 guys who think a double whistle is not only ok but expected, then where do you get off saying it isn't good? There are a lot of calls that happen in a gray area, many many calls/no calls a game. I don't see where double whistles here are a bad thing. As a matter of fact, if there is what a coach thinks is a close call that goes against him, you sure have a lot more ammunition if you had two whistles. IMHO

Hold the phone! What you are missing in your analogy is the players. These are the biggest, strongest, most athletic players in the world. Just being on the court with them is different, way different from HS, and stronger than college. They have to call this game different. Do not ever assume that a HS referee could referee an NBA game. Maybe a college men's official who's on top of his game, but a HS official would not make it. They would be too intimidated by the players.

It's really hard for me to watch NBA ball on TV prior to the playoff's. But refereeing it or being down there on the floor, it's fantastic! The 1st and 2nd round of the NBA playoff's is some very good basketball too. You should tune in there. I watch Phoenix every chance I get, they are a pleasure to watch, what pro ball should be.

Yes, I think that Welmer is a great official. One of the best. I also disagree with you that he is afraid to make tough calls, which is basically what you are intimating.

You obviously don't like him personally. Also obviously, the people that count do like him though. That's all that matters. He works multi-conferences, is on a pile of big games and always goes late into the tournament.

There are no <b>perfect</b> officials.

Jon Diebler?

Well, there always is <b>one</b> exception to any rule........

I think I know what you mean, but to say I don't like him personally means there is something there besides my opinion of the way he officiates and that is not the case.
I also would disagree about him making tough calls.
How "deep" does he normally go in the tournament?

I'm not missing anything in my analogy. If these are the most athletic players in the world they shouldn't have much trouble following the rules. Again, that's likely how NBA officials are told to call the game, I just don't like it. My preference. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to the game.

I take it you have officiated in the NBA?

Well, Tom, from the shots that you take at the guy, it would be hard to think otherwise than you didn't like him personally. You certainly seem to go out of your way to dump on him. That's fine though. Everybody gets to have their own opinion.

And as for how far he's gone in tournaments and how many assignors he's got, sorry, I try to keep right away from that kind of nonsense. I'll leave that to the fanboys, stripe-sniffers and haters. Personally, imo if they're working constantly and consistently at the D1 level, then they're a good official. Period. That doesn't mean that they're not gonna screw up every now and then though. They're good, but they're also human.

Why get on Welmer? He is cool and a great role model for young officials who are going to AA or NA!

Look, obviously Welmer is a very good official or he wouldn't get all the assignments that he gets in major Div I college hoops. That being said you cannot compare Welmer to Jim Burr because of one very simple stat....

Final Fours officiated: Jim Burr -- 15
Steve Welmer -- 0

Final Fours separate the very good from the great and the Welmer's from the Burr's

Biz, thanks for the statistic. I can agree with your assesment. I would like to repeat: contrary to what some believe, this is about officiating and nothing personal.

I can't believe you said that. So when we are talking about senior DI officials, all of a sudden no official is perfect. Hmmm!! I'm beginging to believe there must be something in the Kool-Aid.

Ahhh, not so fast. These young, high energy, individuals are still humans, factor in the huge amount of money on the table, and sometimes emotions and character run a little out of control. Following the rules is not a problem, respecting the rules and the authority figures around it is a different story.

I feel you on this, I like the college men's game the best.

I wish!

I really like Welmer. I see him at UT games all the time.

But I do wonder why I've never seen him ref past the 2nd round in the tournament.

Congrats btaylor64, old school agrees with you. That should tell you something about your opinion is. :D

That's a major problem for a great number of officials: being able to separate off the court from on the court. A lot of people view critique of officiating performance as a personal attack. It would be interesting to see how officials would be rated if it was only by their partners. I think most officials would struggle to give honest ratings of people they work with all the time.

But not for officials who are truly trying to improve and move to another level. That's why we go to camp, to be critiqued; to be criticized. I agree that many officials don't want to hear an honest critique; but I would suggest that the vast majority of those people are not working to improve their officiating. I see very few people at camp who refuse to accept an honest critique.

My college association has each member rate each of his/her partners over the entire season. It's done anonymously and I think pretty much everybody participates.

As a group I believe officials are among the most open to criticism people on the planet. But having to take a lot of criticism officials tend to block out the criticism that is not productive. Which is why people who generally offer non-productive criticism often think most officials do not accept ctiticism well.

But I really know very, very few officials who do not accept and welcome honest, productive criticism.

Absolutely - the willingness to provide honest criticism is one of the traits I most appreciate about officials as a group. It's fabulous... even though you get the criticism delivered in all different sorts of ways/attitudes you still appreciate that something honest, important and helpful is being told directly to you!