hi guys

i'm the trail and my partner is the lead, but while he is under the basket he lets some very obvious fouls go when player A is shooting. my partner doesn't make the call so i do. of course, the coach from team B goes crazy and
"how can i make that call from so far away"

it is my understanding that if you see anything illegal from near or far you call it. did i do the right thing?

let me know
thanks

All I have to say.....
 

You better be 150% sure you are calling fouls, not just what you think are fouls. And my question to you, why are you paying attention so close to your partners area? If you can see all those fouls in his area, what is going on in yours?

Peace

To answer your question, Jeremy, no you didn't do the right thing. Let your pard call in his area. If he blows it, that's his problem.<p>You will get more flack for getting a call right in <b>his</b> area than you will for missing one in <b>yours</b>.

You and your partner need to be on the same page. If they are truly fouls, why isn't he calling them?

My guess is that you didn't have a pregame.

I, too, would make the call under the "Oh, my God!" principal. In other words, if everyone in the gym saw it but your partner and the collective response would be "Oh, my God!", get the call right. But yes, I would get with my partner a.s.a.p. to make sure you get on the same page.

Yes it is and don't let anyone tell you it is not.
--
NF Officials Manual 2001-03, Prerequisites for Good Officiating.
Page 9, General Principles

“19. Cooperation: Each official must give full cooperation to coworkers and to the assistant officials. Neither official is limited to calling fouls or violations in their own area of the court. Each official should call fouls wherever they occur and be prepared to help other officials at all times.”
--

BktBallRef has the right idea on this. You and your partner have to get together and talk before the game about many situations.

Unfortunately this is a profession/semi-profession/calling of egos that can get bruised now and then when you step on someone’s feet. So be ready for some heat but you must be true to your principles to be true to the game.

you should talk about that in your pregame, that if something occurs out of someones area, will it be called, and will they SELL the call. my main thing is, if its in his area and close to your primary area and its a obvious foul, call it, then sell it by running in there after a strong whistle and letting everyone know you saw it. but if its really close to him, im not calling it even if i see it. first of all, it makes the crew look stupid. second, if hes not calling his area,and your calling into his, then whos watching yourS??? and last, you shouldnt be looking there if its in front of him. i had soemthign similiar happen to me 2 nights ago, and i responded to the coach,"i wasnt looking down there, ask my partner about it, he has a much better view in front of him then i do." :)

I absolutely HATE referees that say this to caoches! It a lot of cases it comes across as if you are trying to distance yourself from your partner, and lay the blame squarely on him/her.

A better response is something like: "if it was a foul (violation, whaterver) then we would have called it". This shows a united crew working together.

There is no such thing as YOUR call and THEIR call, everything that happens on the court is OUR responsibility.

This is great! I've always hated having to say "I didn't see it" to a coach/captain.

There's nothing wrong with telling a coach that he would get a better answer form your partner, if the parnter made the call or no-call. There's nothing wrong with Mark's statement. He didn't say, "Coach, that's not my call," or "Coach, that's not in my area."

You statement doesn't always answer the question. Your answer only works if there wasn't a call.

There is a such thing.
 

I have to disagree with you. I do not want to be explaining a call I did not see. If I am explaining calls that was not in my area, or I had no clue what my partner called, I feel it is always better to have my partner explain it. I have no problem with this because then the coach can ask the appropriate official, instead of the official that is watching off ball or looking thru players. I tell all my partners in pregame, if a coach has a question about my calls, to ask me when they get a chance. I am a grown up, I can answer for myself. I do not want to explain anything about what you called. I might not explain it properly. And better yet, if I explain his or her call, then the coach will want that all the time. Even when I do not have a clue myself. And especially when you are doing 3 Person mechanics.

There is a such thing as YOUR CALL and MY CALL. If you blew the whistle, it is YOUR CALL. Chances are, you saw what happen, that is why you blew the whistle. But if I am good off-ball official, or I am watching on-ball on a off-ball foul, how the hell am I going to know what was called? Like the old saying, get it straight from the horses mouth, not the horses AZZ!!

Peace

Some good points made about answering for your partner. I have trouble with this, and feel like I am short-changing my partner if I say "it wasn't my call", but at the same time do not want to be answering for something I might not have all the right facts to answer.
As for making a call in your partners area, it was not stated clearly what the situation was, but I always discuss in our pre-game that if the trail is in good position to see a play that is in the leads area, go ahead and make the call. The lead may be screened from a reach-in the happens in the paint. If I am the trail and have dropped down to a good position, I would make the call if I had one.
Make it clear though, that I am not going to make calls in my partners area, when I have my own area to cover. In the situation above, this is a grey area where we might both be observing. The key is that I was in good position to see it. A coach will not argue the fact of position if your are there. He still might not like the call though.

There is a grey area...
 

As you all know, there are "seams" (transition areas) in which double coverage can occur. As mentioned earlier, this is something that should be covered in the pre-game. As well as, what are you going to do with double whistles.

In all cases, you and your partner have to communicate. This is no place for "ego trips". Your goal should be to get it right.

Having said that, I agree with Rut about calling your area. If you are "seeing" all these fouls underneath, I suspect you are missing off-ball action.

In regards to coaches questioning calls, when it happens, be supportive of your partner. Make affirmative statements such as, "Coach, s/he was right there. I am sure s/he got it right."

Willie-
You have made some good points. My point about making a call in my partners area is that it might happen once in a while, but I would not expect that to happen very often. If it does, we would have a talk at half-time to clear this up. We usually discuss calls like this anyway, just to clarify what was called, and what I saw in his area.

I would like to piggyback on what williebfree said.
 

I also wanted to add that I am against "hanging your partner out to dry." When you do answer questions from a coach, you must be supportive and tell the coach that they "got it right" when you can. All I am purposing, is that you do not get in the habit of answering things you did not see. Tell the coach in a proper way that "my partner had a much better look than you or I" and move on. I always tell my partners to have a coach ask me about what I did, because I realize that they do not have a clue what I might have called. I work several games with the same partners, but when I do work with guys I am unfamiliar with, I tell them they do not have to explain for my boneheaded decisions. I can answer for myself and encourage them to tell coaches that. And if I call something that is not clear, I will explain it if I can.

OZ Referee, I agree that you should not just pass the buck if you will. You must be firm about sticking together, but you should not have to answer for things you do not understand or did not see. And if you do as much 3 Person games as I do, you understand that if you are looking off-ball like you are suppose too, you will not see many on-ball fouls and off-ball fouls if have the ball in your area. You should not just say "that was not my area," but you should be able to say, "coach, I have not clue what he saw but he sure did have a better look than I did. I am sure he/she will explain it when they get the chance." Then they will not be coming to you the whole game about things you did not see or did not realize what exactly was called.

And I must clarify, I am talking about 3 Person mostly. In 2 Person, you see much more of what is being called by your partner. And I am also talking about varsity and up level games. Coaches are "usually" much better understanding and reasonable the higher you move up the ladder. And because you "usually" are working with more seasoned officials, you can get away with this and have no problem. But when you do those JV and Junior High Games, you might have to stand up more for your partner and just tell him or her, "that was a good call." These coaches do not understand that there is a way to get the information they need without being a azzhole about it. So they tend to fly off the handle more and do not understand that the Trail probably did not see the call the Lead made under the basket.

Hope that clarifies.

Peace

The officials are charged with making
the proper/correct calls.
If your partner missed something, GO GET IT
especially if you are absolutely sure.
If your partner cares about doing what's right,
he will thank you.
If his ego is most important, he may be upset.
Your job is to make the game fair for both teams
and to penalize fouls and violations as they occur.
Always do the right thing by the players
and explain to your partner that you don't want to infringe
on his primary area, but will, if the game is on the line or if the foul is on the shot (protect the shooter).
Hang in there and have the courage to make the right
call, even if it may not be the most popular.
The seasoned veterans know that it is important
to make the right call even if you have to slightly
bruise the ego of your partner.

Bossref,if you're going to call everything you want,anywhere you want,any time you want-why do you even need a partner?Ego shouldn't be a factor,but don't you have any trust at all in your partner's judgement?
Seasoned Veteran!

Trusting your partner has nothing to do
with it!Getting the call right does!
Maybe where you ref ALL partners are PERFECT.
There are many times when you've got to let him
have it all:Player driving in to score one on one
and partner not screened out, Action in the midcourt
area, etc etc.
However, in a pre-game with 2 experienced partners
it is best to say: "Hey don't worry about our areas.
If something important happens and you see it for sure,
make the call! That way we both look good."
The players and coaches don't care about whose area
it is. They care about getting the right call.
Why don't you try to think about the game more than
you think about your partner's primary area.
Sometimes partners are screened out.
Sometimes they have a brain fart.
Sometimes they don't bring their A game.
Sometimes action occurs in a "gray area"
or a "shared area. Fullcourt press with a bang
bang play near halfcourt.
Don't go "reaching" into your partner's area
on a regular basis. Respect his area under normal circumstances. But don't be an idiot and ignore
what's really important because you want to
only make calls in your primary area.
Your comment about why do I need a partner if I'm
going to call everything, shows your lack of experience.
I'm not going to call everything, but I will always
protect the shooter and I will always make whatever
call is necessary when a game is on the line,
especially if my partner is sucking on his whistle.
Maybe that's why the players and coaches respect me.
Try dialoging with your partners before the game.
Let them know that you want to cooperate, that
you will be there for "help" if needed, and will only
make calls in their area if you KNOW for SURE
that the call was the right one and absolutely necessary.

Just one little question.Say you're lead in a close game right at the end,and you get a shot(4 feet in front of you)with a little contact,and,in your judgement the contact didn't affect the shot,or you know the contact was iniated by the shooter--and you therefore pass on the call--what do you say after the game to the trail if he comes in and makes the call on the defense from 20 feet away?Great call,partner?I just think that sometimes you just have to trust your partner's judgement.

Well bossref.....
 

if you do that crap in my area, you can think that is a lack of experience by the higher brass, but you would not be working very long. "Getting the call right" is one thing, but reaching over and calling stuff you did not see is another. There is a reason you have 2 or 3 officials, you better let them call the game the way they know how. If you do not, you might call things YOU "THINK" are correct, but truely are not. I am sure that you might mean well, but just because something looks bad does not mean that it is a foul. And your best bet is to let your partner decide that on their own.

The bottom line, if your partners are not "GETTING IT RIGHT" they will not be there for long. Remember that.

Peace

Not interested in a pissing contest with you.
Please read the last 4 lines and understand that I
don't profess to making a habit of calling out
of my area (especially right in front of my partner).
BTW Your two rules are great. You must love yourself.
Also it's too bad officials who log on to message boards
like this have to be so defensive.
In answer to the other post above:
If contact is slight AND you know your partner
had a clear view of the play, I would certainly
not infringe upon his judgement.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
You should continue to do what works for you.
Peace out.

Not pissing contest here
 

I read your whole post and I still disagree the first time I read the WHOLE POST.

If you are watching what is in your partners area, what are you missing? What did you not "GET RIGHT" in your area? This is not being defensive, this is being concerned that in your NEED to "GET IT RIGHT" you are missing things that are in your area. You are correct, you need to get things right, but you sure do not need to be looking in your partner's area to "GET IT RIGHT." You need to get rules applications right. You need to make sure that you are doing what is fair or help your partner when they ask, but you do not need to be calling things that you are not in position or you did not see the entire play. And when you call things that are not in your area, chances are you did not see the entire play. Or at best you missed something that happen closer to you.

And if that is being defensive, then I guess I am defensive. But as I said, you take that philosophy where I live, I STILL say you will be watching more than you will be officiating. You must trust that your partner has the competence to do their job. If not, then you do not need to officiate with them, or they will not be there for long. But do not say that you can justify your attitude by saying you need to "GET IT RIGHT." Give your partners some credit, they were assigned the game just like you.

Peace.

Have a nice day!
I hope your partners keep you out of trouble.
PS This will be my last response on this subject.

Good-night,Barry.Btw,the name you picked-"bossref"-seems to fit your officiating philosophy very well.My last response,too.

You do not have to be a big baby or the situation.
 

Keep who out of trouble? I do not have that problem. Unlike yourself, I call what needs to be called and I pass on what does not need to be called. And if a partner is doing what you suggest, they will not be working with me. See, I have many games that I bring officials that are competent and do not need help. And if they feel the need to help me, I will not ask them back. It is that simple. See if you are not competent in your judgement, I will make sure that you will not be working with me. Just that simple.

Peace

PS: It may or it may not be my last post on the subject. See, this is just a discussion. You do not have to agree with me.

Peace again.

rut,
seems pretty harsh to x any official you dont like. you do allow for mistakes right?

Did not say X an official.
 

We are not talking about mistakes. We are talking about being unwilling to trust your fellow officials on the court. If an official cannot do that, they will not work with me. And I am sure I am not the only one that feels that way. I usually have the right to bring officials with me to certain games. I am not bring officials that cannot and will not trust their partners on the court. It is one thing to make a couple calls outside your area, but to do it on a regular basis is another.

This whole thing is getting so far off
the point! I don't believe that I inferred that
officials should "regularly" call in their partner's area.
I did mean to point out that officials are charged with calling fouls and violations as they occur. I did mean to point out that officials should have faith in their partner's judgement.I did mean to point out that players
and coaches expect the right call and don't care who has primary responsibility. I did mean to finally point out that
ON OCCASSION, should a partner get screened out (and a seasoned veteran can sense this quickly)or just "miss"
something IMPORTANT, his partner can "pick him up" by making the appropriate call (even a late whistle).
Some things HAVE TO BE CALLED! (You veterans know what I'm talking about.
BTW Most places I know about assign two referees. We don't have the luxury to hand pick our partners.
FYI I have been officiating basketball for 30 years.
I worked high school from 1973-79 in Boston and from 1990
until 1997 in San Diego. I officiated men and women JC
in the 80's and 90's in San Diego and was in 3 women's division 1 conferences through much of that time.
I currently own a business that assigns year round to over
35 facilities. It is entitled Best Of Sandiego Sports,
which is also known as BOSS. That is how the moniker bossref
came about (not as was recently hinted about some power
thing). My posts are to give opinions that might help referees that are still in learning mode. They were not intended to ruffle feathers of people who want to be closed minded and who want to engage in personal attacks.
Most of us are confident and very opinionated.
Those traits work well in our avocation/profession, but they are best tempered and used in a positive vein.
I hope to continue to visit this board while learning something from others and maybe even making some new friends. Carpe da Whistle and keep learning.
Barry Alman, BOSS Officials, San Diego, CA

Barry,the above is a heckuva lot better explained than your original post.I got the impression from your original post that you were going to automatically call out of your area whenever you thought something was missed,not just on OCCASION.The above is logical!

I thought this was your last post?
 

I can only speak for myself, but I am sure Jurrasic Ref feels the same way. I only took issue with your comments. This is a little better explained sitituation. This time you explained it much clearer.

BTW, it is never personal, that is why we are here.

Peace

OZ ref-
i disagree that by saying, " ask my partner why he did or didnt call it" is not like hangin ur partner out to dry. Its about your partner on whether or not he decides to make a call, are u telling me you would explain something halfway across the court OUT of your PRIMARY area to the coach? if my partner decides on a no call, then thast up to him to explain that to the coach, if he choses. i wont explain for a call i didnt make, because i dont know the reasoning behind of why the call was made in the first place? my response as a coach to u would be, if you saw it, then what did u miss in your area? The court is divided among the officials for a reason, to assign responsibility to ones area, in my opinion otherwise, there would be no off ball fouls or things of that nature because the officials wouldnt know whether to watch the ball or become the off ball official. but i will agree with u that everythign on the court is our responsibility. but there is a such thing as YOUR call and HIS call. What about the primary lines to the court to whose responsibility it is to call the ball out of bounds or not? would u blow your whistle as the trail if the ball went out in the front court on the baseline? the thing is sometimes, its just best to swallow the whistle, for your sake and in that sense not make a fool of the crew.

BOSSREF
 

Nice recovery!

Your last posting is so much more reflective of what I believed that you wanted to say, originally.

Ah yes.... the value of effective communication. :)