"Over the back"
 

just had to tell you guys this one. had a varsity coach, who used to be an IAABO official send his captain to me during a timeout to ask me to watch the "over the back". I tell her that there is no such thing. she says, "ok, coach told me to ask," and walks away confused. I explained it to her later.

Since you knew that the coach was an official, I would have sent her back to her coach with instructions to tell him that you will be observing the over-the-back, but won't be calling any fouls for it. :p

good one, i have to work the boys varsity tourney at the same school this weekend. i'll remember that one.

Classic! I find amazing, that the coaches apparently read the rule book and still use terminology that isn't in it. I also like when coaches yell for over the back and then I tell them is no such thing, but there is displacement, they reply back saying I'm and official to.
Great maybe we will get the chance to work together!

When they tell me this, I usually reply back "that's nice, but you aren't the official in this game."

Possibly because there are still officials out there that use the term over the back.

I've decided not tell coaches that there's no such thing any more. The main reason, I've worked with officials who call this; officials they respect because they've seen quite a bit. Now, they are calling actual fouls, they're just reporting it as over-the-back.
So, if I were to tell a coach there's no over-the-back and my partner proceeds to call it; I'm the one who loses credibility. Now, my response is simpler. "There was no foul on that play, coach."

I usually show the pushing mechanic and state "on the back" or "on top the back" when I report.

JoeTheRef,

It is reporting like that that perputuates the myth of over the back. If you show push, call push! It is not on the back or on the top the back.

I worked with a guy last weekend at the state tournament that reported it as a rebounding foul...showed the push and said rebouding foul 23 blue...I thought it was pretty good, so I am going to try and incorporate it.

So, you confused a player with a sincere question.

For me, I try to be more professional and less sophomoric.

Coaches have a lot of trouble with "over the back" just because a player reaches over or comes around the side and beats the defensive player to the ball doesn't mean he/she was over the back. There has to be contact, they need to push off or '"be on the back" knock them out of the way or something, just reaching over and grabbing the ball without contact is not over the back as the coaches like to say. Getting the correct angle as an official for this call is not always real easy but something I have really tried to work on the past few years of finding the right position or angle to make these calls. The only technical I gave this season was giving to the coach bc I was tired of hearing him whine about the other teams player being over the back. He was just bigger and stronger and quicker to the ball, his team wasn't blocking out correctly to keep him from getting to the ball. This is coach talk that at times can get on your nerves. If the player is pushed in the back or shoved out of the way or is weighed down by the other player being on top of his back yes it will be called most of the time, but just getting beat to the ball is a whole different thing all together.:)

had a kid reach over and get a ball
 

the coach whined as was to be expected...he did make me chuckle though, he said, "we don't box out very often, when we do we need you to protect us" LOL...but it was the classic case of the kid out jumping his kid and getting the ball..

Why "call" anything?

Signal pushing and be done with it. There's no need to verbalise anything but the color and number.

For me, I don't need a coach/captain to ask me to watch anything.

Asking me to "watch for..." implies that it's happening and I'm not calling it.

No thanks.

No reponse at all to that player's statement ?
I'd say something, like "We haven't seen any contact."

You can't see everything and having the team captain, or coach, share their view of what might be missed on the floor seems pretty valid. To say "watch for" is different than having them say "why don't you call...".

I agree. As long as they are asking in an appropriate manner, they deserve an answer. I've used what Mick said on occasion or more often than not just an "OK" will do.

I just say "Ok" and then promptly forget all about it.

Nobody said they didn't deserve an answer.

I'll give an answer but I'm not going to be real concerned with what it is.

Quite honestly, the coach isn't looking for an answer.

I have no problem saying, "There's no such thing."

So you think it's "pretty valid" for coaches to make statements to you in an attempt to influence your decisions.

Me too.

Answer the kid's question, don't get in a silly sematics discussion wth him.

Agree with Junker; it's okay to acknowledge the concern quickly as long as they're polite about it. They might not have the term right, but they think the other team is getting away with contact. Just say okay and move on; or be like some guys I know who take it personally and call 'OTB' on the team that just complained....

Don't Escalate
 

Although it may be easier said then done, it may be a better response to say that you didn't see the over-the-back. A comment that is derogitory may just escalate the whole issue.

Is the point, that you did not see a player gain an unfair advantage? Is it not possible that the coach saw it differently? Isn't the rest is terminology?

If a coach asks you to "watch for over the back" or "watch for the reach" just look at him/her and ask "Why?"

See what kind of response you get. :rolleyes:

That's what I do. It often gets me some not so kind looks by the lesser informed. :p

How about, "I saw it. It was a great play."

OMIGOD!!!! Dan tries to give a professoinal and less sophmoric answer? :eek:

That would be fine, Dan, if it were truly the kid's question, but you are well aware that it isn't. It's the coach's message for you in an attempt to get you to call something his way. The kid is just the middleman, and we both know that he could care less what answer you give him because he is only doing what his coach instructed him to do. Why not go directly answer the coach?

I suppose the correct answer might be "the coach's box is for coaching.";)

Why do I care?

I don't concern myself with every nit or every imagined power struggle as it seems you do. Player asks me to watch for over the back, I'm going to smile and mumble "OK". Coach asks me to watch for over the back I smile and mumble "OK". If either asks again later I tell him I heard him the first time and haven't seen it since. It aint changing the way I call the game. Apparently you need to confront the coach about this for some reason...maybe you watch too much Oprah?

There's enough to keep me busy working the game. I don't get wrapped in perceived psycho-dramas.

The softer, gentler Dan. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ges/faint2.gif

I do not entertain things that are not rules with players and coaches. Because not only is there no such thing, they believe there is such a thing as "over the back, moving screen" or "reaching." If you say "OK" then the first time you do not call an "over the back" the then it turns into a "that was a foul" type of discussion. I guess if it works for you to placate them for a few minutes, but I am not going to do that. Actually it tells me how much I will not listen to a coach or player.

Peace

Proper communication is "pretty valid" - what was described in the OP was proper communication to the officials.

Sooooooo.......by the same token, do you think it's OK for the official to go over and tell the coach what he should be doing? Maybe say "It's time to take the press off, coach"? Fairs fair when it comes to "proper communication".

That coach sent his player out for only one reason-- to try and get the official to make some rebounding calls in <b>favor</b> of his team? Or do you really think that the coach wanted you to call some "over the back" fouls <b>against</b> his team?

Proper response to that proper communication is to say "Yeah, right" and promptly fuggedaboutit. All the coach is trying to do is influence your calls. It's the oldest coaching ploy in the world, and obviously some rookies are still falling for it.

Would it be so hard to just say "Tell coach I'll call a foul when I see contact" and leave it at that?

You should say whatever you feel it necessarily to get your point across. If "OK" works for you I have no problem with this. If you need to say more, then say more. I know I am simply just not going to debate what an "over the back" foul is. Whatever works for you, works for me.

Peace

Just be sure to pull your pants up when you're done. :rolleyes:

I hear alot of guys say something like "if you have something come to us and if we have something, we'll come to you" in the captains meeting. Then when a kid comes to them during the game, they ignore the captain or give a sarcastic comment. This does not build confidence in the ref/player relationship.

In my experience, the response given by an official usually depends on what the player came to the official with. If they just want to b!tch, then they can consider themselves lucky if they're only ignored. If it's something legitimate, I think that most officials will give a legitimate response.

I may be wrong here, as I only just completed my first year of officiating, but could the coaches, players, and fans actually understand that contact is required in order to get the foul called when a player rebounds a ball from behind another player. Maybe the coach thought there was contact, and instead of telling his captain to tell the referee, "Please watch for the push from behind on the rebound," it is just easier to say, "Please watch the over-the back," and realize that the referee will know what they are talking about. Same thing goes for, "Please watch the fouling while reaching in," or "Please watch for the contact during that moving screen." Again, I could be wrong, but maybe the coach does understand that there has to be contact to get the foul, and maybe he saw it that way.

9 times out of 10 their team is doing the same thing. I can think of a few times when a coach said something like this and moments later his team was called for it.

Hey you said to watch for it!

Usually, there is not a messenger boy on this pleading for us to pay attention...coaches prefer to yell out "Over the back! And 1! He's reaching!" for the most part. The over the back whine typically happens when a bigger opponent cherry picks a rebound over the outstretched arms of his player and gets a putback bucket.

Coaches or players understand that contact is required or not is not the issue that I am talking about. There is nothing inherently illegal to make contact with a player's back. There is nothing illegal to reach in for the ball. Even if there is contact that does not mean you have a foul. You have to have displaced a player or cause some kind of advantage to have a foul. So that means the bigger kid that out jumps the smaller kid should not be called for a foul just because there is a little contact. You will find that they call for a foul when nothing illegal took place. But when you say "over the back" and they are not calling for any other kind of rebounding foul, you lose credibility with me at least. When they lose credibility, I stop talking to them soon after.

Peace

I agree. I had a tournament game this weekend. B1 was defending the ball handler with his hands held up, but he was sort of bellying up against him. Seemed to me that he was putting himself at a disadvantage, unable to react. The coach, right near me, starts yelling "How can you NOT call that?" Meanwhile, the guard spun around the defender and went for an uncontested layup. That's how I can not call it, coach.

I had the exact same play this weekend in a 2-whistle AAU game and I was the trail. Coached yelled the same thing, and no sooner after the player spun free and took her dribble for an open lay-up, my partner called the block. I looked at the coach and said you don't want that call coach, girl had an open two. He looked dumbfounded and said in the most countriest accent, daggummit you're right...:confused:

The good coaches understand this sort of thing. I had a similar play earlier this season. The defender reached in and got a lot of arm, but the ball handler kept control of the ball and went to the hoop uncontested, till she was fouled at the rim. The coach asked me if she got fouled early in that play and I told him she did take a lot of contact, but I didn't want to take away the offensive player's easy basket since the defender didn't gain an advantage from the contact. He told me he appreciated it and we moved on.

Sounds like he was just making sure you saw it. :)

Noooo!!!!
 

Please do not repeat this, because you will then lead the coach to believe that ALL contact is a foul. We know this is the case, don't we??? Right on JRut.

:eek: