Would you have T ed ?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Philz

But if you saw one of my replies I also mentioned I played and coached also and have said stuff out of frustration

Just because you said similar things when you were playing or coaching doesn't make them ok. Asking a ref if he has something against a particular kid, or even his team, is questioning his integrity. It's not a comment made out of frustration; it's calculated, IMO. I caught that part, I just don't think it's relevant. I used to travel every now and then when I played, but I still call it now.

Originally Posted by Philz

He also caught the part on how I mentioned the game went great up to that point, close all the way, no complaints just a good close clean game (local championship) and I just couldnt see firering up the whole gym ( at least 300 people) with a few seconds left when it was something between me and the coach and only a couple people may have heard. I will say it did piss me off like no other comment all year.

Again, it's not relevant. IMO, his comments here earned the T regardless of what had transpired before. Being nice to you all game doesn't give them a license to go over the line.

Originally Posted by Philz

But when I went home, grab a beer and jumped in my hot tub I felt good about it but woundered what other Refs would have done.

99% of us would call the T.

Originally Posted by Philz

By the way I'm not that new a Ref. I've been Officiating for 10 years, mostly Armed Forces adult and youth Rec leagues as its all I had a chance to do since I was in the military for 22 years, I just started NJBL this year and loved it. I got selected to do the district championship last sunday ( 3 man, that was cool) and would love to do High School again (only did 1 year) and college would be a dream. Learned more this year then any and alot from this forum....thanks

Welcome to the forum.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

99% of us would call the T.

Jmo, but I think that very few officials wouldn't call the "T". And I hate to say it it, but those few that wouldn't are the ones that are afraid of "firing up the whole gym".

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yikes! We'll try not to hold that against you.

Maybe Philz is OS??? :0

[Philz]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Philz - if you've been around this forum long enough you would start to doubt yourself even more if Old School agrees with you...

Let me ask you this about the original post: let's say in your game, instead of the coach coming out and doing his thing, sub A6 has to come in for A1 because A1 twisted their ankle on the play. 24 sec. left, A is down by one. A6 gets the ball, and does an obvious travel, because they hadn't been in the game before this. Does this thought cross your mind: "Maybe I should let this travel go, because all the other A players played their hearts out this game, and it would be a shame to let this one player cost them the game"? I would hope you don't call the game this way. You should call the travel and move on. It is exactly the same with the coach's actions. You make the call, and move on. The coach's actions cost the team the game, not your call. Granted, you felt yourself getting emotional, and it is a good thing to try and keep emotions from getting in the way of the calls. But if the coach crosses the line, it's his fault for costing his players.

I've figured out that if I leave a game wondering if I should've given a "T", then I should have given it. I have never left a game wondering if I should not have issued a T when I have.

I disagree with you comparing a Travel with a "T". A "T" I feel is more of a tool to maintain control of the game on mostly the sportsmanship side although I know its use for other things like player number not in the book and so forth but used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure but I know when he said it he wasnt thinking (I know he knows I dont know that kid and wouldnt have something agaist him) its just what came out of his mouth. I felt the kids should decide the outcome of that game not the coach and me feeling like I needed to "T" him because I'm a ref and no ones going to talk to me and get away with it. That seems to be what I see a lot in these replies. I Ref and umpire with a few guys with the nobodys going to give me any S**T attitudes and I think thats wrong and maybe I get more S**T from people because they know I'll take it but the game not about you and I believe if you walk off the court without the ref being a factor in the game then you did your job. I'm not saying you need to take a lot of crap and if you read one of my replies I mentioned I called more Techs than I can remember this year and even have tossed 3 people out this year but there are certain times when you suck it up and take one for the benifit of the game and I feel I did that with no regrets I dont care how many refs tell me they would have "T" em. And to compare that to a obvious travel is stupid.

[Adam]

You didn't take one for the benefit of the game. The game took one for your benefit, no matter how you justify it.

[Philz]

One more thing M&M since you compared me not calling a "T" to and obvious travel. Sit down and watch any Div 1 or NBA game and count how many obvious travels that dont get called. If you compare that to me not calling that one "T" then I'm still way ahead of the best refs in the world by your comparison.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Philz

...used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure...

This is what sums it up. You say the coach was unsprortsmanlike, but you didn't punish it according to the rules. You didn't make the call. It's no different than not making the traveling call. You did, in effect, help decide the outcome by not making the call.

Believe me, I used to think exactly as you do - let the kids decide the game, not the coaches. But, coaches do help decide games - they request TO's in strategic places, they call the offensive and defensive sets, they decide when certain players come into the game based on situations, and many more. If you truly believe coaches shouldn't affect the outcome of games, then they should be banned from the benches entirely. Only the kids should be there, right? You know that's not the case. So if you look at it realistically, coaches have just as much responsibility for the outcome as the players; therefore they should be held to the same standards of behavior.

As I've gotten older, I've realized the T is just another call, just like traveling. There is still some judgement as to what warrents the T, just like there is judgement in whether the pivot foot was lifted before the dribble was started. As we become more experienced, we miss less of both.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Philz

A "T" I feel is more of a tool to maintain control of the game on mostly the sportsmanship side although I know its use for other things like player number not in the book and so forth but used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure but I know when he said it he wasnt thinking (I know he knows I dont know that kid and wouldnt have something agaist him) its just what came out of his mouth.

I dont care how many refs tell me they would have "T" em. And to compare that to a obvious travel is stupid.

If you don't care how many refs tell you that they would call a "T", then why did you ask us in the first place?

And doesn't the fact that basically nobody but Old School agreed with you tell you something?

Read what you wrote above. You state that a "T" is used to punish unsportsmanlike behavior. You also state that the coach's behavior was unsportsmanlike for sure. Yet you absolutely refused to punish him. And then to try and excuse your failure to take care of bidness you now start spouting nonsense like "the good of the game" and "the kids should decide the outcome of the game" and "don't want to be a factor in the game" and "suck it up and take one for the benefit of the game". All of those are nothing but very weak excuses for not doing what you're supposed to be doing as an official. Methinks you should go back to being a coach, Philz. You're just too nice a guy to ever be an official at the high school level or higher.

Remember, you asked for opinions, Philz. There's never any guarantees that you're gonna like the opinions that you hear.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

Old School:

He had a great game up until the moment he did not whack the coach. At the level I officiate and many of the other officials on this board officiate at, if you do not take care of business, you will not be around to take care of business another time.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

You just prove my point. You need to get out more. Did you forget about Bobby Knight?

If you would have blasted a T at the precise moment the coach made that comment to you, like the OP almost did but caught himself. That would have been an emotional T. You reacted to his comment the exact same way he reacted to the play. Both actions, not well thought out, imho.

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

Old School:

The coach in this thread went ballistic. I would have unemotionally WHACKED him.

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Old School

You are upset while I'm laughing inside.

I have purposely never responded to Toad Stool. You know what they say about wrestling with pigs.

I appreciate that some, perhaps even most, of you engage him only so that other, less experienced officials don't accidentally believe this buffoon's "advice" is useful.

But I think that in his response to the preacher, he has finally given us an honest glimpse into the man behind the buffoon. Toad Stool is nothing more than a pot stirrer. He doesn't care about officiating. He's only here to amuse himself by getting us worked up. Don't give him the satisfaction.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jmo, but I think that very few officials wouldn't call the "T". And I hate to say it it, but those few that wouldn't are the ones that are afraid of "firing up the whole gym".

Afraid or smart? Again, you need to get out more. It's not all about you or the rulebook.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you don't care how many refs tell you that they would call a "T", then why did you ask us in the first place?

To gain some knowledge you moron. Repeat after me, it's not all about me.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And doesn't the fact that basically nobody but Old School agreed with you tell you something?

Yea, it tells him that I am the only one out here that uses common sense. Everyone else is stuck in it's all about me mode. Thank god you are not a cop.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Read what you wrote above. You state that a "T" is used to punish unsportsmanlike behavior. You also state that the coach's behavior was unsportsmanlike for sure. Yet you absolutely refused to punish him.

That is not true, that is you putting your spin on it. He did not absolutely refuse, he thought about, weighed his options and made a practical logical strategic (to the game) decision not to blow him out the water. You may not agree with the decision, lord knows I did not agree with Bush decision to invade IRAQ, but I respect the fact that it's his decision to make.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And then to try and excuse your failure to take care of bidness you now start spouting nonsense like "the good of the game" and "the kids should decide the outcome of the game" and "don't want to be a factor in the game" and "suck it up and take one for the benefit of the game". All of those are nothing but very weak excuses for not doing what you're supposed to be doing as an official. Methinks you should go back to being a coach, Philz. You're just too nice a guy to ever be an official at the high school level or higher.

I can not believe you said that. You should be band from this board for this comment. Doing something for the good of the game is nonsense!!!! Now I know you're been drinking too much of that kool-aid. If this offends you, you need to check yourself in. I'm serious man, you need to turn in your referee license because I sure as hell don't want you working with no kids.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

To gain some knowledge you moron.

Yabut.....if he refuses to actually use that knowledge, that would make him...well....you!

Btw, "moron" again? Tsk, tsk, tsk.........

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut.....if he refuses to actually use that knowledge, that would make him...well....you!

He didn't refuse. That's your problem. He laid everything out on the table and then made a decision. I know I have said this before but you and the others have a one-track, one way fits all mentally. People who take into consideration everything, are the best leaders, the best decision makers, the best ball players, the best coaches, the best in academincs, and yes, the best officials. Give you a real live example: Let's say you are the best shooter on the team. That's what you do, game on the line, one point game, you got the ball, you're looking to shoot, you shoot, two people on you, you miss, game over. The player that takes everything into consideration, sees that 1.) the game is on the line, 2.) we need a good shot to win the game, 3.) I'm double covered, 4.) looks for open teammate 5.) baits the defense into thinking he's going to shoot and 6.) passes ball to open teammate for the win, 7.) still gets the MVP because he made the pass, the decision, that helped his team to win the game.