Why I hate Rec league
 

So being young I decided to pick up some extra cash 25 a game, pick up a 5th grade girls, easy right. Well the assignor did not tell me I would be working with a first year ref. Well things explode after the game. I will include my report I sent the assignor tell me what you thing the penalty should be for this assistant.

Note I am changing team names along with coaches names:

Please consider this my game report.
Game was Team A V Team B 5th grade A
division (Both teams from the same school) The Head coach of the team
causing problems is Coach, (Coach's daughter and son
worked the table the next set of games, and claimed
the assistant was CoachA, but this is second hand
knowledge and may be wrong.)

The game went well until the very end. with just about
a minute left in the game, game was tied. Body's team decides they
want to role the ball down to the mid-court line to
save time ( the other team showed no sign of pressing)
I administered the ball and she rolled it on the line.
I blew my whistle and signaled the other way due to
the violation. As I was turning around out of the
corner of my eye I see 31 from Coach's team throw the
ball very hard at my feet in an obvious manner as a
way of saying I am upset. I gave out a T, no question
in my mind she deserved it in fact the players father
came up after the game, asked what she got the T for
and when I explained he said nothing. I then hear
Coach Body yelling and making a scene about it
including the words " that is ridiculous." I gave him
a T and things settled down. The opposing team
attempted the 4 shots and then was given the ball at
the mid-court line. They eventually loose the ball out
of bounds under there basket. I then take my place at the mid-court line
for the throw in and my rookie partner administers the
throw in. As I am watching I watch Coach's team again
roll the ball over the line. I whistle and signal the
other way. CoachA makes a little noise but thats about it.( as I do with all of
the rookies I work with I follow the ball most of the
time and am out of my " zone" most of the time.) The game then ended. Before even going over to shake the other teams hand CoachA came over to yell at me. He finally left and
shook the other teams hands,( at this time I had a hunch he was comming back and told the table personell to listen in and take notes of what he said, I also told my rookie partner not to say anything and to just stand behind me( I did not want her to have to be envolved in this) and then he returned to me. He continually asked for my name and I showed it to
him on the score sheet. He then said he was going to
call my assignor and report me. This was not the end of it. He
then felt that he needed to chew me out. He opened by
saying in 40 years of basketball he had never yelled
at an offical or had ever been so disgusted. He then
followed this by saying "that I should hang up my
shirt and whistle and coach lacrosse" He continued to
ramble on and I tried to ignore him. I never said a
word to him. He then said that I was a disgrace to the
game of basketball and to officials. He then tried to
get me to say from which parish I went to church ( this
seems odd since it was a game between the same parish) I never gave
him an answer as I did not wish to speak to him since
he was so out of control. After his arguing for a few
minutes I became a little uncomfortable as to what
would come next as he showed no signs of cooling off
and I called the assignor on his cell phone. He told me that he
was only a few minutes out, had a few moments before
his next game and would be over. I then told the
Coach A and he left me alone ( at this point the head coach who was listining in, and who never said a word left and was never seen again. When the assignor showed up CoachA was there to meet him and after what looked like exchanging a few words with him both coachA
and my asssignor approached me. I then told my assignor the entire
situation with the coach there and besides trying to
make me tell certain details, which i did for everyone
he asked. He never disagreed with what I had to say nor that the call was wrong, he was still upset that I called in my partners area.
my assingor finally told him to leave the gym immediately.

It was a crazy game. If your are from the STL area and want specifics about the assignor and stuff it makes the story better, just pm me.

I'm confused, can you elaborate a bit more about the violation for "rolling the ball over the line"??

What line was this? Just so I can visually picture what happened. Right now I'm assuming it rolled over an out of bounds line.

Sorry it is vague I shouldcahnge this before i send this off. It was the baseline. He steped back to the wall and rolled it like a bowling ball, so it rolled over the baseline.( It touched the line)
He did this because the other team was not pressing and he didn't trust his girls arm strenght and thus he would roll it to midcourt and then his player would touch it, it would save him time.

Edited to add on.

Well the second time it happened, if I were you, I wouldn't have even contemplated putting air in the whistle. That's your partner's call, and you're in no position to make it standing at half court.

You shouldn't even be watching the ball or the thrower, if both of you have your attention on the thrower, and B-4 gives and uppercut to A-4 who's going to see it?

Other than that, some coaches are ***-holes, and you gotta deal with them, if you think they went way over the line, send a report through your association.

I know that unless I do something wrong, I've got the full backing of my association, when the SHTF.


Edited to Add:
A few more things, when someone decides they're going to chew me out after a game, I walk away, don't give them a chance to chew you out, and definitely never call the assignor from the gym. If he's that serious about it, he'll file a report. This isn't something you need to drag the assignor into right then and there.

I've had situations where an irate fan/coach/parent has come up to me after a game asking for a word with me. I give them a simple answer of "No!", then take notice of the bewildered look on their face as I head for the safe haven of the referee's room.

First off I respect your opinion however in the rec leagues around here when we work with rookies we are told to look at things like this( my rookie was a freshman in HS) so that we catch things they miss, then we tell them these things and they learn is the idea, my assignor had no problem with me looking there and when I did confer with my partner she said it did touch she just STILL did not realize it wasn't allowed. This is gonna go to the leauge however if you were the league director what punishment would you give
Edited to add due to the previous edit: there was no ref room, we were stuck in a gym I figured the best place to go was the table, thats where the most of us were.
I never asked my assignor to the gym, I called him per his wish to inform him that a coach would not let the game end. He decided to come on his own.
It did not matter what I said to this guy he wanted to argue thats why I said nothing. What good would a No have doen.

I've edited my previous post to stick a few more points into it.

But regardless, I believe that line violations are something that we either live or die by as individuals, not as crews. Even when I was a rookie back in my freshman year of high school, my partners wouldn't call on my lines when teaching me, but if I missed something like that it was definitely brought up in the post game as something I should look for next time. Being overruled on your own line does nothing to help your confidence as a new official. Even now with 6 years experience under my belt, I still work with officials who feel they have a duty to call in my area, and stuff like that, and it pisses the hell out of me.

There's nothing I hate more than someone calling some contact right in front of me that I judged to be incidental and to not have caused an advantage. And while I won't say anything on the court when it happens, I will bring it up in the privacy of the referees room after the game. The only time I will call outside of my area, is off ball, when my partner has primary coverage of the ball, and I see something not in his field of vision or that I know he missed because he's focusing on the ball. Or a major SHTF situation where something has to be called or else the situation's going to get worse.

I love this question. I run a men's league up here, I used hand down punishments, until the players realized that they're going to get punished and recently haven't had a single disciplinary problems.

After reading this situation, I would talk to the coach in question. One technical in a game doesn't warrant a suspension or major disciplinary actions.

If you wanted something to get done, I would've given him his second T after the game (while he was giving you the hard time), noted the disqualification, and in my league if that had happened, he'd be sitting out the next week for sure.

If I were in your shoes, I would've just walked away, he wants you to listen to him, and you aren't going to change his mind, so don't give him the satisfaction of being heard.

Fair enough, however this coach never recived the T it was the assitant who was complaining after the game the head coach got the T earlier. At the time of the little trouble I did not think at all the assitant coach would make any kind of deal after the game.
The coaches are sloppy cause I omitted there names and I dont thing I choose the best pen names but I'm too lazy to go back and edit it so o well.

Ohhh OK, yeah it sounded like the assistant got the first T.

First of all, I thought you said this was a girls game. Since it was not a playoff game and it is 5th grade. I probably wouldn't call that, just like I know you let some traveling go, some double dribbles, etc. Did the score end up like 7-6? However, it is totally unacceptable for the Coach to react the way he did. Welcome to little league basketball. The girls parents are the worse. At this level, the parents are wayyyy toooo into it. Whenever I have a game like this, I'm not taking off no shoes, I grab my bags and I'm out of there before the coach can find me. While they are shacking hands, I'm exiting.

Well we had another after that. no I think the final was like 24-19 something like that. We have been told in this league not to let that stuff go, that they need to learn sometime so better now then never. The year is almost over for them too. We allow things like that in 2nd,3rd, and some levels of 4th but after that it is basketball and guess what the kids LEARN how to really play basketball and not just foul all the time.

My personal opinion after doing a 5th/6th grade girls tournament 2 weekends ago. They're still too young to be calling that sort of stuff They haven't developed the skills they need to. When I'm able to start calling every travel, I'll start worrying about that kind of a line violation. I'd make a note of mentioning it to the player or the coach though so they can teach their kids the proper way to do it. Because after all, in the play you described, no advantage was gained.

You are correct in the advantage disadvantage thought method and that is what I TRY key word try to use. I feel an advantage was gained. The other team gets the ball down under there basket and more importantly the other team is unable to waits 9 seconds or so illegally.

But doesn't the official's manual say that just because a violation happens outside your area, that doesn't mean you shouldn't blow the whistle?

Well, if you thought you did the right thing than you just have to live with it. Others here have told you that that's something you might want to let go. Especially if you are at half court. You keep making decisions like that and you're not going to last very long in this business. Remember, the games just about over. It is at this point in the game where we earn our money. I don't disagree with your analogy, but you have to be there (primary) to make the call. If you're going to reach out of your area to make a call, it needs to be something brutal, that we just can't let go. IOW, if there's no blood on the court you don't go into your partners area to make that call. If you do, and it happens to decide the game against my team. I, as the coach, am going to think you are cheating. You got something personal against my team. Be advised..hostilities, emotion of the moment, not good....

fonzzy, Good call. It's one thing to let a "little" travel go, it's quite another to let a play go that purposefully (if ignorantly) breaks the rules. This coach was teaching the girls to do something that's illegal. That's got to be called.

Would I make this call in my partner's area? No. That said, your league assigner on this apparently wants you doing this for rookies. While I don't necessarily agree with this philosophy, it is what it is. You're doing fine if that's what he wants you to do.

Now, on to your original question. Was there a game/site manager present to help you with this? If so, get him/her involved and tell them this individual needs to be escorted from the gymnasium. Your other option is (if the time frame is reasonable, I can't quite tell from the OP) to issue him a flagrant T. The comments he made to you would have been a flagrant T in the middle of a game, and the final horn does not end your jurisdiction.

After re-reading the OP, it sounds like not much time had elapsed from the final horn. In a HS game, you'd have been off the court. However, since you hadn't left, you still had jurisdiction for a T. Don't be afraid to use it; and if you do it, make it flagrant.

And the coach's opinion matters why?

Risking to sound preachy, I want to comment. The first thing I noticed is this is a 5th grade game. I would hope that you pointed out to the players what the violation was to further prevent any further violations. Second, I admire your determination to educate your partner, however; calling the violation in front of your partner is a HUGE reach. Be patient and let your partner live and die with their whistle or lack thereof. There is nothing wrong with that. Lastly, if your assigner wants this league to be the educational environment, why not call the ball back and tell them to roll it correctly. There was no advantage gained by the 5th grade girl unknowingly roll the ball on the line. Especially if there was no press. Blow the whistle, tell the 5th grade girl how to roll the ball corretly, and then tell the coach (both of them). That is a wonderful teaching moment. This mentality is what I take into my middle school games, especially the 6th grade level games. High school and DII games, a bit differently. Thank you for reading and commenting.

I would hope that you pointed out to the players what the violation was to further prevent any further violations. Correct I did this the first time she did it.
The press was allowed however. You are correct maybe that could have been a teaching moment, or maybe the first time. o well
I'M STILL INTERESTED IN IN HEARING WHAT YOU WOULD DO IF YOU WERE THE LEAGUE COMMISSIONER? WOULD YOU HAND OUT ANY PUNISHEMENT AND IF SO WHAT?

As the assigner, I would...wonder as you work with a rookie, who probably ball watches the entire game, why would you watch the ball, your partner is watching the ball. Take care of everything else that happens on the court, like the coaches, like you did. Punishment for the AC, well, that is up to the assigner. What they broker with the school is what will happen and you have said your peace. That is all you can do. Keep working and do what you do on the court.

IMHO, there are things you can control, and things you can't. What the commissioner does or doesn't do, is definitely a cannot control. You've filed your report. Move on.

At times your game management skills in a game of 9 & 10 year old children plays a big part. Calling every violation or foul can drag these games out and never allow any flow (Ha !) to develop. We have all had games at this level and you do pick and choose to pass on certain situations.

With 10 bodies moving around on the floor, me getting screened is always a possibility. While we do have our area of coverage, if my partner observes something in my area (but not 3/4 the lenght of the court on an inbound violation)..........call away, we are working as a team. Talk to your partner after the game and point out areas that need improvment, and also point out things he did well.......positive comments.

At the end of the game I am making a quick exit somewhere. I do not owe anyone an explanation for anything. This is going to add fuel to the fire that is already burning. Regardless of the level, game management, and court awareness ranks right up there with knowing the rule book inside and out.

I live and die by my calls, and my partner does the same. It's not fair to my partner if I call in his/her area, and how is my partner going to learn how to make calls if I make them all for them.

If my partner makes a habit of continually calling in my area, I'm going to mention it at halftime or in our postgame.

Half the time it's because I want to see some more of the play develop before I put air in the whistle. Why cancel a score to call what could be a meaningless foul?

I've had partners who don't understand the concept of advantage/disadvantage, and will call something everytime they see contact.

This pisses me off more than you can imagine.

Basketball is a contact sport, if the players didn't want to play in a contact environment then they should be learning to dance ballet.

But I can't stand it when I have a partner who repeatedly calls in my area. And if it happens you can be assured it will get brought up.

You said it was a 5 or 6 point game right? Team B is rolling the ball in an obvious end of the game situation, right? Maybe a few seconds on the clock right? I'm thinking with a few second left, a 5th grade girls team is not going to makeup 5-6 points. If this is a call in your area and you see fit, then blow your whistle. If you've gotta call long distance, leave it alone.

Regarding the coaches punishment, you've written your report now it's up to them. Just leave it alone and move on. We can all senerio what we think should happen. He may get more and may get less but that's not for us to decide. It probably would have helped your cause to issue a T after the game. It probably would have also helped the cause of every future ref this coach will have so he knows that the game is over when the horn goes off.

I will PM you to see where you were at.

I'm still not clear what the violation is. First you said the girl rolled the ball ON the line, then it was OVER the line. Explain more, please. Oh, and a rule reference.

I think you guys are missing the point. This particular assigner wants him to make this call. This particular assigner wants him to look for it in the rookie partner's area. You can argue with the assigner's philosophy (and I would), but I find it hard to argue with fonzzy making the calls (either of them) when it's his assigner that wants both calls made if necessary.
You could argue that making the 2nd call is more important because he's already alerted the coach that it's illegal.

I agree Snaq, while I don't agree with it, if it's what he's being asked to do, then there's not much he can do.

Just something that I try to do anytime I make a call such as the violation called here is, after I communicate the nature of the violation to the coach, to have a brief word with my partner. I might say something like, "I just explained to the coach that they can't do X, so let's just make sure we watch for it." You're not talking down the them in any way, you've explained a rule to them, you can start calling more in your primary and less in your partners, and it only takes a second. It's a win-win situation I think.

Other than that fonzzy, I'd just reiterate what most of the guy around here have already said. Anytime a coach comes after you, do your best to get away. I've worked rec leagues and college intramurals, and I know that it can be hard, but just do the best you can.

Where in the original post does Fonz say the assignor wants him to call the entire floor?

Allow me to direct your attention to post #5. Before reading it, I was going to try to make a comment about letting your partner decide whether or not to make the call.

Failing to pass the ball directly inbounds. If a throwin first hits OOB, it's a violation.

Thanks Snaq. Yes, Bob, it is.
I'm still not sure I'd call this in this situation. Unless she started rolling the ball from 20 feet behind the basket, the team did not gain an advantage. Even then i'd stop her and do it right.
I did that in a 7th gr. "B" game this year. First game of season, a girl caught the ball after a basket, stepped out of bounds, and instead passing to her 'mate, she ran onto the court with the ball. (No press allowed.) I stopped her, made her do it again. No one protested. Game went on.
I'm also dubious your assignor wants you to step in and call this for your partner. Major fouls, big obvious travels, sure, but this?
If you have the guts to call this (twice), and guts enough to T up the coach, then have the guts to tell him your name. He goes away much sooner.
And finally, your assignor didn't say anything more to the coach, other than to leave, because he couldn't defend your actions. Silence does not equal agreement.

I don't think you can make this assumption. If that was the case, he'd have talked to him afterwards about it.

You know after seeing that video of the "High Stress Ref," I'm thinking about signing up for Rec League games just so I can practice those mechanics. :D

Any particular reason why you're saying that Fonzy is lying? Why would he post asking for thoughts and then lie about it?

You sure seem to know a heckuva lot more about the situation than Fonzy does. Were you there?