first 3-man
 

I'll be working my first 3-man crew next Monday....any suggestions on how to prepare myself are welcome.

Do you know the Officials Manual ?

Bring your shoes, striped shirt, whistle, all that good stuff.

Prepare as much as possible before the game, but come game time, worry about the play in front of you instead of the mechanics of 3-person. Don't get too caught up with the mechanics and forget to officiate.

Mregor

Make sure you know the areas of responsibility and referee your area. When you're the C, work off-ball as hard as you can. Also as the C, hang way back to help with any pressing. As Lead, rotate aggressively. Find a reason to move. Don't leave your C with the ball and a post matchup.

I hate rotating aggressively and finding a reason to go. Hate it !

Hate it !

Like Scrapper1 say's study your area's. Work the game and do not worry too much about the rotation. you all on the court will be the only one's if it get screwed up. Just fix it. as LEAD find your post players for both teams and stay ball side with them. Learn the teams offense. Have a good pre-game. This year we went with to 3 man. It is the only way to work a game.

The main problem I had when I first did 3-man was noticing the rotation.

In the camp I went to a super procedure is to take a quick look back to see if another official is behind you.

That's what I started doing and I haven't had any problem with picking it up since. Of course in the third rec game of the night earlier this year I was running down court after a FT began working as C, problem was it was a two man game and I was supposed to be the new lead. :o By the time my brain quit farting, my partner "covered" for me and became the new lead.:D

Buy him a beer.

Me too. "Find a reason to rotate" is mostly camp-speak. If there's a reason to go then go. This is especially bad advice for someone new and gonna spend most of the game wondering whether or not he's rotating 'aggressively' enough and getting his partners confused.

Obviously, since I wrote it, I disagree. The reason that it is GREAT advice for someone new is that the new guy almost never rotates enough. They're always tentative. You say that they'll wonder if they're being aggressive enough; but I think that most newbies wonder if now is a good time, nope, too late, now, no, ok, no wait, ok, shoot. . . And they get stuck either just standing still or ball watching until they decide to go. So instead of that, just go!!

The whole point of that expression is to make them realize that it's almost always ok to rotate. If you go and the ball swings back, it's ok to just come back. It's better to over-rotate than under-rotate. So rotate aggressively.

New guys/gals usually aren't really comfortable with rotating. So just go! We'll adjust if you have to go back.

Yep, and in 2-person they knew that if they rotated as lead, they were leaving something uncovered. They need to learn that if they rotate at a bad time, there is still an official (the new C) on the side they vacated so it's not the end of the world.

I always tell the newbies to "rotate too much and we'll reign you in later" (and of course, they still don't rotate enough when they are first starting 3-person).

Stay in your primary...stay in your primary....stay in your primary....

Trust your partners...trust your partners....trust your partners....

Patient whistle...patient whistle....patient whistle....


Those are my suggestions.

Yeah, "Just go." Ha !

In "high C", I am really working a competitive matchup above free throw line extended and action moves 4 steps toward the baseline. [I've got another offensive player outside the arc in the corner and his defender has a foot in the lane.]

My matchup defender makes a quick steal [I am on this thing and see a clean pick] and stealer throws a quick pass to a streaking guy down the other side. So I am 2 steps below the Free Throw line extended and "Voila!", my New Lead had made me the New Trail.

Why? ..."Just went." :rolleyes:

Mick, but if the pass is to the guy streaking down the other side, your new C has that and was the old T so should be able to officiate that play to the basket. Also, if I get 2 steps below the free throw line as the C, I'm looking to get higher as soon as I can anyway.

I agree with those that say that new officials to 3-person do not rotate enough. Either by indecision or staying too wide, they miss good opportunities to rotate. Without proper rotations the benefits of 3-person are minimized.

Umm, then you should stick to 2-man.

Thank you for that advice.

Two things about this scenario, Mick.

1) If you've got the ball above the FT line with a matchup near the lane, then I'm rotating anyway. Whether we're using my "just go" mentality or not. That's a perfect recipe for a rotation, no? If the C has the ball and a second matchup, we should be rotating.

2) In this situation, if your Lead forces a rotation and you get caught behind the fast break, so what? Pull up and officiate it from the C position. How many times a game will this happen? If you get beat once, or even twice, a game, I don't see that as a big deal.

Just go!! :)

Yeah, ...I go.
My favorite partner has the "Look for a reason" mentality. I live with it, cuz I know he's coming, but I find it somewhat disruptive.
And it's not just me. There's often the other guy, who thought he was still Trail and I gotta tell ya, I don't like the look of two Leads. :)

I like the "reason to rotate" philosophy because I think it balances the floor much better. I also think if you are aware of where the ball is, you will not have many missed rotations. Then again, we work almost exclusively 3 Man at the levels I work. Many of the officials are very used to that philosophy which makes for a smoother understanding of these issues.

Peace

Rut,
You mean have a reason [like me] or make-up a reason. [Just go.]

That might be a difference in the meaning of where you live. I mean that to find a reason. Meaning that do not allow the perfect situation to hold you back from rotations. I would rather over rotate than under rotate. Now of course I keep into account the team, the players and the situation, but I try not to rotate if there is no need like no post player on the block, team is right-handed or left handed or maybe a zone defense is being played.

Peace

You like the look of NO leads better?? ;)

If there is a mistake to be made, I'd lean towards two leads over none.

Oh, yeah! Two Centers, and a Trail standing at the division line, looks butt ugly.

So, Camron, are you going just in anticipation or are you going cuz Center needs help ? :)

If it's so obvious why must you state it? And why must you begin your statement by acknowledging the obviosity (c.f. rainmaker's "intentionality") of what follows? You know what they call people who insist on stating the obvious? Annoying...but maybe calling you annoying makes me annoying too... Bullsh1t.

Here's my take: OP has end of season 3 whistle game and comes here for help. You give him standard mid-summer camp bullsh1t answer to look for a reason to rotate. If I'm pregaming a real game (as opposed to a fake summer camp game) with someone who's about to work his first 3 man game I'm telling him to forget about rotating. Too much to deal with during a real game. Don't make the other 2 in the crew have to worry about where you are during the entire game.

You want to experiment during a summer camp? Fine, find a reason to rotate. Run back & forth like a bunny.

End of season game? Don't worry about rotating and just ref the damn game.

Here's my take. If you're not going to rotate, then don't bother using 3 officials.

Look, even with 2 officials, the Lead is going to go ballside. Just keep doing it. You seem to think it's BS and that's your right. It's BS that has served me pretty well, however. So pre-game however you want. I'm going to tell my new guy to rotate if he even thinks he should rotate and then go back if he's wrong. In the second half, we can tone it down if we have to; but I'll bet that we don't have to.

If you're going to use 3 officials, find 3 officials who know the system. Well, we're making progress. You're still stating the obvious but you're no longer calling attention to the fact. In what regard? Are you the go-to guy to break in officials to the 3 man system in the last week of February? I'll spend the pre-game not dumping tons of new stuff on my partner. Let's talk about the game we're about to work, not "finding a reason to rotate".

But obviously it's your right to disagree.

No, that's not what makes you annoying.

Within my association, yes, I am. (I certainly am not trying to brag and I'm sorry if it sounds that way, but you asked.)

1) I'm not going to dump a bunch of new stuff either. I'm talking about one new thing, which is an essential part of the 3-man system. I'm going to encourage him/her to rotate, even if it means rotating too much at first.

2) You obviously don't like the mid-summer BS camp-speak. No problem. So don't use that expression. The point of the words is to rotate. If you're not going to rotate, just work 2-man.

That doesn't even make sense, particularly from the go-to-guy of your association.

I could be worse than breaking someone into 3 man in a February game. Here, we're going to 3 for all tournament games even though much of the state only works 2 all season. In my first tournament game I was with one of my regular partners but our 3rd was new to us. He had worked some 3, but there were some positioning things he didn't do the same as us (he was way deep as trail). My district final I worked with a 2 man crew that had done exactly 2 3 man games all year, in the 1st round of the tournament and in the second round of the tournament. They actually adjusted very well. We had a long and intensive pregame that really helped, and yes, we did rotate. :)

Sure it does. The responsibility of the lead official is to put his/her crew in the best position to referee the game. More often than not, that means having the lead on ball side. Rotate. Watch how often the NBA guys rotate. The lead pretty much just mirrors the ball.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense. Here's what I mean. The whole point of the 3-whistle system is to have 2 officials on the ball side as often as possible. If you're not going to rotate and actually put 2 officials on the ball side, then there's no point in using the 3-whistle system. That's all I meant.

This makes no sense to me either.

It's like telling someone to just find a reason to shift and just do it when he's driving a standard for the very first time. I'm sure not even the go-to driver ed guys could pull that off.

It's not even close to being like that. :(

Might be what you meant but what you said was "find a reason to rotate", as if those words of wisdom gives even the faintest clue as to what any of those reasons might be.

Of course your argument that the entire reason for 3 man system is to rotate is obviously silly so I won't comment further on it. Except to say it's misleading at best and to conclude that all a newbie needs to do is "find a reason to rotate" and he'll be OK is simple minded.

Oh yeah, one more thing: Bob, shut up.

Of course you don't think so cause you're in the "find a reason to shift" camp.

I disagree with this. The main point of the 3-whistle system is to provide better coverage. Even without rotation, you have better coverage.

Is that what this is all about? You don't like the words "find a reason to move"? Regardless of what they mean, you just don't like the words? So that even after I explain what they mean, you're still kvetching about the phrase? It gives you a bad camp flashback? (Insert picture of Cartman on acid :) ) So don't use the phrase. It's just a shortcut. Explain it out. I don't have a problem with that. Just get the new guy to move.

Of course it is. But since I never said anything remotely like that, I don't know why you bring it up.

Nope, nothing to do with bad camp flashbacks or liking the words. It's the advize I object to. It has to do with using shortcuts and not explaining them that I have a problem with. "Find a reason to rotate" is a simple-minded, inane, content free knee jerk response that offers no help to the reader. In fact in the context of the game he's going to work it hurts more than helps.

Again, I'm much happier telling this guy to not worry about rotations, or to maybe give him 1 or 2 concrete examples of when he might want to go so he can focus on the game instead of running back & forth on the endline.

Obviously I'm not the go-to guy on this, but I think my advize makes sense.

I have to say that as a newbie who has never worked 3-man but is trying to learn it, "find a reason to rotate" makes absolutely no sense to me. I would think I should be taught the reasons to rotate and within the game I should look for those reasons and then rotate accordingly. I think perhaps saying "don't be afraid to rotate (or over-rotate)" would be better.

This is exactly what I am saying. Go!! Rotate!! Over-rotate!! Don't be afraid of rotating at the wrong time, because the only people in the building who will notice will be the officials. But apparently that's innane and simple-minded. So don't do it.

Yeah, but that's way different to my ears than saying "find a reason to rotate."

To someone inexperienced with 3-man as I am, the reasons for rotating aren't very clear, so "finding a reason" pretty much sounds like "make up a reason" to me.

I hear what you're saying, but I think that Dan_ref does have a point about your specific verbage.

Are you on some type of narcotic today? Or maybe decided this would be a good morning to start drinking heavily? Seriously. When you get a call on the go-to-guy phone to offer advize to newbies at the end of the season facing their first 3 whistle contest you advocate chaos? After all, it aint gonna confuse anybody but your 2 partners...and you of course. But go ahead, give it a shot. We finally agree Scrappie. Here are written some wise words.

When I started 3-person, I heard about 50 different philosophies on when to rotate. The somebody told me, "just go when it looks like the C will need help." That works for me.

You are a wise man and must be a Yankees fan.

GREAT advice. Thanks, z-man.

Do you really believe that 5 rotations in a possession is chaos? :confused: What are you picturing is going to happen? You think the new guy is just going to run wind sprints from sideline to sideline as the new Lead? Cats and dogs living together? Mass hysteria!!

Have you considered decaf? :p

Well, I'm not going to be confused. And I don't honestly think that you are either. You might start to get annoyed, I guess. And in that case, you're going to talk at halftime and say, "You know what, you might be overly-aggressive."

Is "chaos" having 2 leads in transition? Heck, I've seen that happen in a college game. It happens even to experienced officials.

The problem with new guys working 3-man is that they are overly-tentative about rotating. If you tell them to rotate when there's even the slightest need to do so, they will maybe rotate enough.

I'm going to withdraw from this thread now. I've made my thoughts as clear as I can, and you think they're stupid. We're obviously not going to come to common ground. If anybody wants my advice, I think you have it. If anybody disagrees, I have no problems with that either.

Works for me, Z. :)

If my partner rotates 5 times in one 35 second period I'm going to stop rotating with him. Because it's obvious he doesn't have a feel for the game, the team's offense or the wear & tear on my sneakers. ;) Not nearly that bad...he'll just spend the game trying to process your advize instead of referee'ing the game. Decaf gives you cancer. No, it's not your advize that's stupid, it's you (just a joke, relax. See, happy face --> :) ).

To sum up: Scrappie's advize is to rotate whenever you should but don't rotate if you think you might be rotating too much. But whatever you do remember to rotate, unless you don't have to. But even if you don't have to then you might want ot anyway.

Got it. Damn it's good having the go-to guy here to work this out with.

Dan wins.<i></i>

At the risk of getting Dan on my case...one of the oversimplified things that I was told early on to get me started was if you find yourself looking across the lane, get your *** across the lane. Obviously there's more to it, but that was a decent starting point in my opinion.

cue Rocky music...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...03/Aybabtu.png

:p

Now THAT is great advice!

You should put in for go-to-guy in your area.

(And obviously you're a Yankees fan.)

Look for the competitive post matchups. It's usually ball side, but not always. Most teams favor one side over the other. Get to know their favorite "go to" plays and just referee what is in front of you.