I think interesting question
 

I just want to know your thoughts. At the end of a game when a team is down by a point or two they will be coached to foul a player in order to get them to the line and have a chance at the missed shot and rebound to get back into the game.
I am aware that any attempt to foul without going for the ball is by the rules considered intentional and is subject to two shots and the ball. In my 40 years of playing ball and a little of coaching, I have never had ANY ref ever call that. Until last week. Here's my situation. I have about 50% of the refs that call our games that state to me they would never make that call. They would consider that a simple foul and depending on the violations, would reward the ball out of bounds or to make shots, but wouldn't call it intentional. They know the rule, but don't call it.
What are your thoughts on games where refs, one game will call certain things, and other refs won't even if it is a rule?? Just my two cents worth, I think it's unfair. One week we get penalized for it and it costs us the game and the next week the oppossing team gets rewarded for doing it becuase the ref doesn't call it? If it's a rule it should be called.

in instances where I know a team is going to foul I make sure I mention to the team/coach to make a play on the ball -- in an event where its a lower level game and they go for the foul and its borderline intentional i remind them that if that happens again it will be. never had a problem and I have called several intentionals in this instance for grabbing jersey, shove in the back type of stuff. only a couple coaches complained and moaned but there is no real argument there -- especially after i mentioned to make a play on the ball.

but for the first foul i am a bit more lenient with the intentional -- it all depends on the severity and what the kid did to get the foul.

If the player makes a play on the ball or to stop a try, its not intentional, its a normal defensive play.

The "problem" is that it's a judgment call, and different officials will have different judgment. In addition, the judgment is affected by the specific game and it's extremely unlikely that the exact same play happend in the different games.

2005-2006 and 2006-2007 POE
 

2005-06 Points of Emphasis


3. Intentional Fouls. The committee is concerned about how games end. The intentional foul rule has devolved into misapplication and personal interpretations. The committee has revised the rule to improve understanding. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

A. Anytime in the game. Acts that neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position and must be deemed intentional include:
• Excessive contact on any player attempting a shot
• Grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored
• Grabbing and holding a player from behind or away from the ball
These are "non-basketball" plays and must be considered intentional fouls anytime they occur during a game.

B. Late in the game. Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy and is utilized by nearly all coaches in some form. It is viewed as a chance for a team behind in the score to get back in the game while the clock is stopped. There is widespread belief that it works or it wouldn't be coached.

There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly. Conversely, a coach who yells, "Foul!" instructions to his or her team does not mean the ensuing foul is "automatically" an intentional foul — even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock. Coaches, officials, players, fans and administrators must accept fouling as a legitimate coaching strategy.

With that, officials must have the courage to enforce the intentional foul rule. Far too often, officials do not whistle fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria. Officiating philosophies should not change because of the time remaining in the game or the score differential. The correct call should be made — not the popular one.


2006-07 Basketball Points of Emphasis


4. Intentional Fouls
The committee continues to be concerned about how games end. While there has been some improvement in the application of the rule, there is still need for further understanding and enforcement. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly.

Additionally, in throw-in situations, fouling a player that is not involved in the play in any way (setting a screen, attempting to receive the in-bound pass, etc.) must be deemed intentional. Far too often, officials do not call fouls as intentional when the act clearly meets the criteria.

It should be called, I call it and ignore the complaints from the coach which inevitably come. All you can do is make sure your players do 'go for the ball'. Also, if you feel that it is an issue which is working against you, call a timeout to discuss it with the officials - that's all you can do during the game.

Of course, there can be some subjectivity to determining whether or not a foul was a play on the ball and you are not an objective participant in the game!

Mick - this looks metric to me. Are you sure you aren't quoting FEEBLE rules? :rolleyes:

don't want to seem....
 

I wasn't asking your thoughts on the rule, but the situation where refs aren't consistant in calling the rules, where one says he would call it, and another says he wouldn't.

Do you want it called or not?

Did you read the post about judgement?

Maybe your players shouldn't put you in that position at the end of the game. Maybe all those missed shots, missed free throws and turnovers that your players are committing wouldn't cost you the game.

Just a thought.

What do you expect us to say? :confused:

Golly Gee, it is a darn shame all refs don't call the same. We are sooo sorry to all the coaches and little kids who lose games because the refs are different week to week. Send us their names and we will take care of it. :rolleyes:

In the perfect world all refs would judge the same week in and week out. All refs would know the rules. All refs would never miss a call. Guess what? Life isn't fair - deal with it. Teach you kids and parents to deal with it. Do your best under all circumstances. There is not much we can do about it. The ones here on this board seem to be trying to improve their game, becoming the best ref possible.

I have called intentional fouls repeatedly late in games. Some examples: two hand push in ball handlers back in the bc, out and out tackles, holding a jersey, grabbing an arm and yanking. I am surprised how few coaches prepare for this type of play, but madly call for players to foul anyone, anyhow. I am also quick to call a legitimate play on ball that gets a solid block, hold, push foul. We don't need the real silly dramatic foul to happen, everyone gets crazy and it leads to increased chance of player injury late in a game.

Now, 81artmonk, ...you've been around here long enough to know which of this forum's members will follow the rules and which members will make something up.
The one's that call it use the term "game management".
The ones that won't call it use the term "game management".
...And all will call it judgement.

:) <font></font>

You are wise beyond your years......

Unfortunately, it's true, it's true.....

On even numbered days, I call intentionals. On odd numbered days I don't. Except Thursdays, then the inverse is true.

oh my gosh
 

I should have known better than to post again. This post doesn't apply to all but those few who really can't read and comprehend what they read.
The reason I reposted was that I was getting answers to the rule and not the situation. I know the rule and didn't need it rehashed or answered for me. I wanted your thoughts on that particular situation. It was kinda of a what do you think about this. Instead I got answers in the vein of I was attacking refs, I wasn't, I was just wanting to know your feelings about it. geesh.
I know I am going to get crucified for saying this but I just seem to not be able to keep my mouth shut. From my short time on this board, it appears to me that not all, but some of you refs have a real chip on your shoulder towards anyone who isn't one. I asked a seeminly innocent question and I get answers like, "geesh, what do you expect from us" " give us the names of those refs and we will deal with it" Can't you answer a question without APPEARING to be hostile??
I've gotten a few real good answers from what appears to be level headed good kind hearted refs, but I find myself not wanting to post afraid that I will get nailed for asking a stupid question or one that rubs some refs the wrong way. Oh well.

i would agree with most of what you just wrote -- good observation :)

however you ask us to comment on the difference in judgement from one ref to another and you EXPECT an answer -- thats a bit unreasonable. I cannot comment on anyone elses judgment or expect anyone to comment on mine.

you are complaining about a system that knows THIS is an issue HOWEVER there is NO REAL way to FIX it. An earlier poster hit it on the head where he asked for names so he could straighten them out JMO.

Alas judgment vs. personal interpretations.

The default SHOULD BE an intentional unless the player really makes a legitimate attempt to get the ball.

I think right now its the other way around.

Please read post #4 of this thread, it answered your question perfectly.

Your words:

"One week we get penalized for it and it costs us the game and the next week the oppossing team gets rewarded for doing it becuase the ref doesn't call it?"

Which part of this sentence do you think might rub refs the wrong way?

That's the part that stuck out most to me.

Without seeing the plays it is tough to determine if any of us would have called it any different. I believe the intent of your question is to get an answer as to why one official will call an intentional while another may not call it on the exact same play. What one official sees as not making a proper play on the ball, another sees as proper. It is a judgement call. What is the proper way go for the ball when trying to foul for strategic purposes?

Strategic Fouls
 

This is part of my pregame:

End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

My feeble attempt at sarcasm failed. I need lessons from Mr. Padgett or should I say Captain Padgett. :D

Truly no hostility was intended, but I thought the question a bit inane. There is no good answer as others have said. This is a judgement call. And judgement calls depend on the moment. To debate why one ref calls something and another does not: that answer that can be definitively given. All we can say is that most associations and chapters do strive for consistentcy among refs - maybe where you live they don't do such a good job.

thank you for clarifying
 

Now I understand. Thank you. Your sarcasm comes off as rude and hostile, but now that you have explained yourself, I can understand better. I guess without knowing everyone on a personal level things can be misconstued. I don't want to sound condecending, but From my listening to this forum you refs seem to live in a logical and straight line world so I can see how asking a open ended question about judgement could be a difficult task... :) ha ha. We all learn from our mistakes and I have mine.

You do realize that this statement means that 50% of the refs you asked are wrong.

By any chance are you the same Art Monk from Long Island, That played for the real Cardinals? If you are email me at [email protected] Thanks

It will not be consistant cuz it is judgement. The VERY obvious ones will probably called by all.

please explain
 

I've heard that alot even from the refs I get for my games, the "judgement call"
issue. I understand how some things become judgement calls, but some things are just obvious. committing the foul and not going for the ball. Player A throws the ball into his/her teammate, player B bearhugs player A from behind to commit the foul. Honestly, how is that a judgement call?? Or a push from behind?? I really can't see how those can be construed as judgement calls? In those cases the player is clearly not going for the ball. Just curious??

Now you're talking about <b>your</b> judgment versus the official's judgment. Unfortunately, it's the officials job to make those judgments, not yours.

Don't you think that <b>your</b> judgment might just be clouded a little bit? Maybe towards <b>your</b> team?

How do you expect us to pass judgement on a play we didn't see? Seriously!!!

All we can tell you is what the rules and POE's tells us we SHOULD do and what we may have done in similar situations.

What are you looking for us to tell you? As I said in an earlier thread started by you, I think you are being disingenuous. I believe your real reason to post here is to go back and tell some official "See, I told you so!"

I noticed you didn't reply to my last post to you in the thread you started concerning backcourt violations. Is that maybe b/c you were wrong and the official was right?!?

Obvious to whom. I know that I officiate more games in a year than the vast majority of coaches will coach in a year. I know I work about 40-60 regular season games every year. I probably work about the same in the summer and off-season months. I watch my games on tape when I get them and I watch my fellow official's games in person when I am not working or during the post-season or tournaments I might be associated with. And you are going to tell me that you know more than someone like me or others that might work even more games? Also the rules are clear that all contact is not a foul and there are philosophies that you may not be aware of to not call everything that simply looks bad. Also when we know a player is trying to foul, it is instructed to get the first contact. So even without seeing these plays, does not mean they happen the way you say they did. Judgment also means that not every official shares the same level of judgment. So what one official might call, another official might completely miss. That is the nature of the beast just like not all coaches know how to teach a particular offense or defense and get their players to where they can execute on a regular basis.

Peace