Bob Knight's Latest Comments about College Officials
 

On the subject of officiating, Knight did not let a public reprimand by Big 12 commissioner Kevin Weiberg stop him from blasting game officials who work five or six games a week.

"To have some guy 54 or 55 years old referee six times a week is a real disservice to the kids who are playing," said Knight, who was reprimanded last week for criticizing officiating in one of his games.

"They have plenty of other places they can go. They can go to the NBA, they can go to the NAIA, they can go to junior college, they can go to high school. For years, the NCAA has hidden behind individual employment contractors. I think that's all [baloney].

"You say, 'All right, if you're going to work in this league, this is how you're going to work. And if you don't want to work in this league, fine, you've got other leagues to work in.'"

Knight said he would support an effort to have the Big 12 hire its own officials who do not travel the country working different games in different leagues several nights a week.

"But these guys are so greedy, they end up trying to work these six games a week. And they're not capable of doing that," he said. "Check schedules and you'll rarely see where kids play three games a week. These kids are 19, 20 and 21 years old."

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

Thoughts anyone?

Just the usual. Knight is an a-hole.

Depending on what activities these refs are undertaking the rest of the day, five or six basketball games is not excessively taxing. Maybe chubby Knight is projecting his own physical inadequacies on others.

My thoughts are that he is exactly right.

In his own misguided way, he might have a point. If (and that's a big IF)there really are guys working six nights a week, that's probably too much. You have to figure there is some serious travel involved as well. Not sure what kind of shape everyone else is in, but I'd find it difficult to fly all over the country and give it my best 5 or 6 times a week.

I'm not looking for opinions about the General himself, just opinions on the comments he made, such as, is that many games too many in a week? How many is NOT too many, especially for the guys that travel around a lot in D1.

What about for HS? How many games is too many in a day, week, or weekend?

I included my opinion on that matter.

If an official is in proper shape, and depending on what activity he participates in the rest of the day, 5-6 games a week is not overly taxing on either his mental or physical attributes.

If, however, he is out of shape and stressed out from daily activities, it probably is. If, at that level, an official has allowed himself to get that out of shape, he should switch to volleyball or tennis.

Actually hiring Big 12 only officials would not be a bad idea. Could pose a problem at tournament time. Honestly working 5 to 6 days a week with cross country travel could be an issue for anyone no matter how good of shape and stress free they are. There will always be an issue with getting additional officials who are actually qualified to work at a D1 level.

Actually hiring Big 12 only officials would not be a bad idea. Could pose a problem at tournament time. Honestly working 5 to 6 days a week with cross country travel could be an issue for anyone no matter how good of shape and stress free they are. There will always be an issue with getting additional officials who are actually qualified to work at a D1 level.

I agree with Knight too, but in a different way. With all the talented officials that we have out here, why is it the same older guys night in and out working these games? We still have blunders, even with the senior guys. I watched a game the other day where one official doesn't count in the backcourt coming up, like it's the NBA, and another official lined up to the inside of the player when inbounding from the baseline. How the hell does these guys get to be a DI officials?

I would like to know why the pool is not bigger. Not enough opportunity is being filtered down in the officiating ranks if you ask me, imho. I do believe that the guys working DI is greedy with respect to working as many games as possible to help pay the bills. If a guy is working 6 to 8 games in a week, traveling around as such. That reminds me of the mind thought of the career AAU official working as many weekend games as they can get. It's all about the money with them. Maybe these career DI officials are thinking the same way.

Ultimately, the problem lies with the assigners who are controlled by the coaches, which is why DI coaches are so powerful, and you don't see coaches getting deserved technicals. For ex: Florida vs Arizona (I believe), Noah went to inbound the ball, after what I thought was a made basket, I could be wrong on this part, but the coach wouldn't give him the ball. That's a damn T in my game if it's after a made basket. Instead, the referee's went after the player and the coach dropped the ball as if he didn't do anything wrong.

If they hired a bunch of new guys, Knight would be complaining that the talent pool of officials was too diluted. He's never happy unless he's miserable.

The conference assignors hire the guys that they have confidence in.

So you count every single time the ball is in the backcourt? What's wrong w/ being on the inside on a baseline throw-in if the spot is near the 3 point arc??

I agree with Bob Knight. I'd like to know how a 55 year old can do 6 games a week of the 2nd best basketball in the country. I do believe the officiating would be better if schedules were reduced.

Gotta agree with Knight on this one. Traveling around the country a couple of days during the week and throw in the weekends to get to 5-6 games, in addition to their normal jobs and life issues, is enough to keep anyone, no matter their physical or mental shape from performing their best every night.

I think he has a point, but it is not going to change. Unless you hire officials for a full time job, you are not going to be able to control who works where and when. I do not think the Big 12 or any conference will take on that task. This also means you would have to hire a lot of new officials to that level as well. Then you might have officials working games they are not prepared for in the coach's eyes and lose out on a tournament opportunity. It is not like only Tournament spots are determined by what you do in conference. That game you lose to a mid-major also plays a big role in who gets in and who is left out. There are literally millions of dollars on the line. I think if some newer officials "screw up" a game, Knight and other coaches might not be so happy with such a system. Also you have to understand Knight is a veteran coach who’s job is likely very safe. What is a coach who is just entering a league like the Big 12 think?

Peace

I agree with Knight here. There are a lot of qualified guys who never get a break cause Steve Welmer works 28 days in a row.

My opinion is that Knight has a point, but the way he expresses it is outrageous. Also, his idea that the Big XII should exclusively hire its own officials is not feasible, nor is it really sensible.

Essentially, what Knight wants is a full time staff of officials, similar to what the NBA has, for the Big XII. For each conference to have its own set of full time officials exclusive to the conference is a horrendous idea. It's hard enough the way it currently is where there are multiple supervisors with their own ways of doing things, imagine how differently games could be called if there was no overlap from conference to conference. There is considerable money involved, but the only way that I think it would be possible to employ full time officials is if it were done on a nationwide basis throughout the entire D1 level. Additionally, the salaries that would have to be paid would, on a per game basis, have to be substantially higher.

In terms of whether officials can travel across the country and work 6-7 games a week, that depends on the individual. I think it can be done, but not necessarily at the highest possible level. I don't see how an official can work that many games and still put in the amount of time necessary to prepare to referee and to review tapes and fine tune their performance in order to get it to the peak level. At some level, there definitely has to be a dropoff, particularly if the official also has a day job.

He's absolutely right about the same guys working way too much.

There are several officials working triple digit games a season in multiple conferences from coast to coast.

I know an official here in Phoenix that left Phoenix on Sunday afternoon, worked in Washington state on Monday, Kansas on Tuesday, Texas on Wed, Florida on Thursday, flew to Oregon on Friday for a game on Sat, then worked a game in Southern Cal on Sunday. He did 113 games that season.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem. He worked four three man games in four days, had a day off, then worked another game.

What else did he do? Did he work at another job?

I'm in my mid 50's. I teach school during the day and work games six days a week. At least three of those days involve double headers.

I don't find three man games excessively physically or mentally taxing. Granted NCAA D-1 is played at a different level, but if this guy is in shape, didn't work during the day and then worked five 2 to 2 1/2 hour games in six days, I don't see a problem.

If the argument is that he's holding other qualified officials back, that's another issue, but I don't buy into Knight's argument that 50 year olds can't handle five 2 1/2 hour games a week.

I agree with Knight and the reason is the travel. Doing high school games that are all within a close drive 4-6 times per week is not a big deal. But, to fly and drive around the country - way too much!

Hmmm, do you travel 100- 1500 miles to get to your games? Do you do them with D-1 players in front of 15,000 fans, with national TV coverage?

Didn't think so.:rolleyes:

Re-look at what I wrote:

This official traveled 1000 miles, did a Pac-10 game, traveled 1500 miles, did a big 12 game, traveled 500 miles and did another game, traveled another 1000 miles and did a Big South game, then went 2500 miles to do another Pac 10 game...that's 6 games and 6,500 miles of travel...piece of cake.:rolleyes:

I think that I am in pretty good shape and I am only 28. Still, when I work two games on a weekend (professional ball with a couple of thousand people in the stands) I feel really exhausted after the weekend. When you travel a couple of hundred or even thousands of miles to your games that is very hard. Often you don't get enough sleep (games end at 10, you leave the gym at 11, go get something for dinner, maybe have a beer with your partners, back in the hotel at 1, have to get up at 8 to have breakfast and catch the next plane/train/whatever)), especially considering that you are full of adrenaline after a game with a lot of pressure.

Another point is, that you don't really have time to go back to your games, analyse them properly and work on your mistakes. Yes, you can watch video on the plane, but you can't change your habbits from one day to another. It takes more time in my opinion. From my point of view a game every other day is definitely enough on that level. Put in a couple of back to back games a season, that would be ok. But not 6 games a week on a regular basis, regardless of mechanics or stuff. You can run 100 miles a week if you are properly conditioned (so 2 or 3 men doesn't make a difference), but you cannot referee 6 nights a week on your highest level!!! I once read an article where another coach complained about referees who worked that many games and after only two weeks couldn't even remember a serious incident in a game at the same gym. In my opinion that should never happen. It tells me that the referee didn't have time to analyze the incident, review the tape, discuss it with partners/supervisors ... (oh, and yes, I do believe coaches have a right to have an oppinion about referees and voice their concerns)

I think the driving takes more toll on your body than taking a flight (at least for me). At least with the flight you can sleep and relax to some extent. If you drive, you have to be alert before and after your games which might less time to sleep or relax. I know I do not work 6 days a week on purpose myself. I am in my mid-30s and when I work 4 games a week that can be tiresome, especially when I have other responsibilities to be concerned with during those days. I can only imagine this being something that anyone would not be a little exhausted from along with the travel.

Peace

I fly 150K to 200K miles a year in my regular job. Flying takes a LOT out of you. It's not just the dry air and the change in pressure, it's dealing with the logistics, security, tight schedules, luggage, etc. Driving 8 hours would be worse, I agree, but flying regularly is no picnic, either.

This is right. Additionally, basketball is played during the winter and that brings other issues with flight cancellations and such.

For those of you who mentioned newer officials making mistakes, I have two reasons why that isn't an issue.
1. Officiating is as competitive as it has ever been and officials prepare for games like never before.
2. You are kidding yourself if you think all officials working D1 are that good. Many officials are hired, hid on a good crew and gain experience to be good enough over several years. Also, many officials who work many D1 games aren't necessarily good-great officials, or communicators. They are people who can take a bunch of crap, not penalize it and keep on keeping on - safe officials. It has turned into somewhat of a situation where doing the right thing for the game will make your stay at the D1 level short.

Don't take me the wrong way, there are some very good officials who make it to the D1 level and are already there. I just think that to say someone is good because they make it to the D1 level would be wishful thinking.

Something that always makes me laugh: the NCAA video is made during the NCAA tournament. Isn't this when the best officials are supposed to be working?

my two cents
 

I see so many good officials these days and I just have a hard time believing that these same few guys have to be flown all over the country. I would support a system that allowed more guys to get those opportunities. I think officiating is a challenge, but this is no rocket science. There are lots of capable guys who, once given a chance, would thrive in D-1 basketball.

Bob Knight is alot of things. I think, on this issue, he might be right but just has no capability of delivering the message with any class.

As for high school, I usually do 4 or 5 high school games a week. One a day and two on Saturday (1:00 and 6:00) didn't seem to affect me. One Saturday, I did do a 9:30 Freshman Boys game, jumped in my car to do a 1:30 Girls JV after driving about 35 miles through the middle of town and then jumped in my car to travel another 15 miles to do a freshman/JV girls doubleheader. I wasn't physically tired as much as I was mentally drained at the end of the day. That was too much. But when an assignor needs a favor, and then another does too, I always say yes.

I agree with you. I am not saying that flying or any travel is not a pain in the ***, because it clearly is. I fly as well sometimes and it can be a complete hassle. I would rather fly any day than drive any day if you ask me. I flew a 3 times this past year just for recreation and that was a pain on many levels. I went to Miami and St. Pete, Florida on two different occasions. I also went to LA at the end of the year on a plane. I took all flights out of Chicago and those were longer flight than most college officials in a region might normally take. Most officials at that level mainly work in the area they live (there are some very notable exceptions to this as well). So for example someone working for the Big Ten is likely living somewhere in the Midwest or in neighboring states. I know some officials that work in the Big Ten where I live and they are just flying for the most part a state over. In some cases they are an hour or two drive away. It is not at all easy, but if you work in some other conferences in the surrounding areas, you are not taking 2 and 3 hour flights. You might be taking flights that last an hour at the most if that at all. Then again, that does not factor your job and other commitments. I do not think Welmer has another job currently. So he can work 100+ games and not go back home every night.

Peace

Would Knight rather have Welmer after 28 straight days or one of the esteemed members of this forum working only our second game of the week?

The coaches and assigners in general have shown by their actions that they prefer the former.

Knight wants to have it all -- he wants the best officials working only enough to keep them at their best, and the rest of the schools be damned.

Personally, I like to work 5 or 6 days a week. I also like to work a few doubles say 2 or 3 a week. So for me, I'd like to do about 6 to 8 games a week. I don't like to do 3 games a day, but once in a while I will. I am 51 years old and in good shape ( round is a good shape right? , Just kidding I am 6'2" and 236 )

If I work 3 games a week, I don't feel as good going into each game.

It's not about the money for me, I love to referee. ( I do 2 or 3 church league games on Saturdays ) I do JV games and I got about 25 Varsity games this year.

BTW, even some of our local high school games will draw 2,000 fans. I did a JV games that had over 1,500 people watching.

Just how do you get officials who are "actually qualified to work at a D1 level" if they start coming up through the ranks and never have a chance to work any D1 games due to the politics? Who should determine who is actually qualified? Everyone has an agenda! If some of the guys working 6 games a week jetting around the country cut back to 4 or even 5 games - it is going to open some slots for others that might already be "qualified".

They need to mentor in some new people using the members of the "qualified" crews. It should work that way from MS to Frosh to JV to Varsity to JUCO to D3 to D2 to D1 for the people who do the work and show the inititive and drive to become D1 officials - BUT we all know it doesn't work that way in all areas and politics play a huge role. It would help to get new guys and rest old legs and bodies.

But Knight does have a point - whether you like him or not. He may be an a$$ but he has been around and sure as he!! knows the game better than most! I am not a Knight fan per say - but I do respect his basketball knowledge and opinions - not always his practices.

Yes, because the mechanics of the NCAA Men's rulebook tells me too. How is the ref going to call a 10 second violation and he never displayed a count? That's not going to go over too good.
#1, the spot was close to the F/T lane and the ref was actually inside of the lane area on one of the inbounds. I couldn't believe it! One things for sure, seeing officials out there doing it wrong, gives me opportunity. I view the glass as half full. If I keep my nose to grindstone, keep trying to get better, seeing poor mechnaincs like this gives me hope. On the hand hand, if everybody is doing good, then I'm okay with having to wait my turn. With competition so stiff amoung DI officials. I just think we should never see poor mechanics on TV like that. Maybe it had a lot to do with the weather and flights being cancel, had to get a local NBA/FIBA guy to fill in.

$$$ play a huge role also. Those top-level officials are making $1,500-$2,000 a game. For an official to cut back from 5-6 games/week to 3-4 games/week could cost that official about $3,000 a week. If an official is in such demand that the ACC uses him 2 times a week, the Big East 2 times, then throw in 1 or 2 mid-major games that coincide with their travel plans do you really expect that official to turn down those games so someone else can work?

Someone please get me some Pepto, cause I'm about to agree with Old School.

I do the 10-second count every time, no exceptions. I've been burned a couple of times by late traps in the backcourt after thinking the dribbler was free and clear. Each time, the coach was on me about not doing the 10-second count. Coaches watch you do your count. They notice if you are or not, and they hold you accountable.

Even if every time down the court there is no pressure, doing the count will demonstrate to coaches, players and fans that you're taking your job - and the rules - seriously.

Just my $0.02.

I think there is this major myth in our society that people are hired on pure merit. College Student Applications are not based purely on merit. Why would you expect college officiating hiring to be based on that as well? Not to make a political statement, but do you really think that George W. Bush was the most qualified in the country to become President? If you know anything about Chicago Politics, people are being elected left and right based on who their parents were or who they are related. Officiating is not at all different in the way people are hired.

Peace

I guess I'm really old school. Bob Knight doesn't care about being politically correct and really doesn't need anyone to defend him -- so I won't.

For a few weeks each season, my schedule lets me work a bunch of days, perhaps as many as 12-14 games in a week because of high school tournaments -- we all do that to help out.

But, Knight's comments dealt with guys flying or driving long distances to work five or six major college games a week.
On those weeks that I have to fly to three or four cities for business and only have to sit through meetings -- I can't wait for the week to end. Like several others have said, I can't imagine traveling real distances to get to five or six games in a week.

Knight's comments and concerns are often rash but his reputation for graduating kids first, keeping his program clean and occassionally winning in spite of those odds, are just a few of the things that basketball was supposed to be about.

Take his comment today on the stupidity (at least for colleges) of the NBA rule that requires high school players to wait one year before being signed.
His comments will certainly make enemies -- probably more with coaches. I would guess however, that you would have a pretty hard time finding one exceptional freshman in any real classes in Austin this week/semester.

I agree with his point of view, but this is not new. The DI officials have been doing 5-8 games a week since I started in 1978. So he has a point, but nothing has changed in almost 29 years.

There is no set protocol for moving up. One conference does it one way others do it the other way. Until the NCAA has a set protocol for all officials, nothing is going to change.

The coaches are just as much to blame. They want the best or the officials they know working their games. Hypothetically, if Duke is playing UNC and Ed hightower is available, the assignor knows that Coach K would rather have him than someone new or he doesn't know. Then if Kansas is playing Oklahoma and Ed is avaiable, the assignor knows the coaches want him. Coaches don't like no one new. Working my way up into college, I have done and still keep doing scrimmages left and right so the coaches know me and I can get on the list. The assignor has to wait unitl the coaches feel comfortbale wiht me before I am assigned. Now at the lower levels NAIA, JUCO, and DIII - are sometimes different, but you still have to work all the scrimmages to get noticed.

I agree with Bobby, but it's the system he helped create. He doesn't have to Ed Hightower working his Texas Tech vs Texas A&M, but he would take him over me, even though I may be just as good as Ed (which I am probably not, but close). He could say Ed you travel to much, I am going with a local referee. Chances are in the conference games and rivalries, Knight would want Ed Higtower, Dave Libby, Jim Burr, etc. They are the known commodaties, I am not. But He can be the first coach to give us aspiring DI officials a shot, but he and many other coaches have not. It's just the system the coaches have helped to create.

The law of inertia states that an object in motion will stay in motion until an outside force changes it, or an object at rest will remain at rest unless an outside forces changes it. The official system in place will stay in place until an outside force (referees united, coaches, and the NCAA) get together to change it. But for now, it will remain.

Exactly. The reason you see certain officials every night in different states is because their services are in demand by the coaches. Period. And to expect these succesful officials to give up a game or 2 a week to bring in fresh blood is not very realistic.

Coaches, including Knight, are hypocritical on this. They want the Welmers and Burrs, then complain about how many games they are working.

I'm surprised that nobody has picked up on what Knight is really saying: he's ONLY setting himself up an excuse if tech doesn't make the tournament and he can blame it on inconsistent calls. If you called Knight right now and ask, "do you want Welmer who's worked 6 out of the last 7 days, or do you want ____ who Knight isn't familiar with," who do you think he's going to pick?

All the stuff about newer guys deserving a chance (which I agree with; for the life of me, I can't figure out why every assignor thinks Tim Higgins is any good -- at least now) belongs in another thread.

Somehow I doubt that statement...so you are Lead as A4 shoots a long three. B5 rebounds and throws a quick outlet to B1 who races up the sideline...all of that took about 2 seconds max - and you counted? I don't think so...

If you're asking if I've ever missed a 10-second count, yes, I have. Especially in an instance such as this one.

But, I do make a concerted effort to do the 10-second count no matter what the situation. And, I would consider missing the count in your example as a faux pas. A minor one, of course, but I try to be exact.

My point is that if you don't START the count correctly, you can NEVER finish it correctly or accurately. And you really never know what is going to happen in certain situations. As I said before, I could assume that the player with the ball is going to cross half court in plenty of time, but what do you do when the unexpected trap occurs, or the ball bounces of his foot and rolls away from him and the defense collapses or...or...or. Better to be safe than sorry.

ETA: I can understand what I implied by my earlier post. It should have read that I make a concerted effort to do the 10-second count every time, no exceptions. Sometimes you miss stuff, though. That's life.

I count every time in my high school games, even on a break away. I never count in my college games...but then I'm working on the women's side for now. :D

Anyone have a web link to the Knight article?

You may be surprised about coach Knight. I think he would actually put his money where his mouth is and give someone new a chance. Keep in mind, that doesn't mean he isn't going to do his normal thing; I just don't think he would be totally against having a younger official work his games.
He could very well be one of those coaches that communication will not work with. If that is the case, what difference does it make to have a veteran official work his game? It might actually be better to have someone who will make the right call more often than someone who is just going to make the safe call.

In general most of these officials are in great shape. I know in some conferences they expect you to be in great physical condition. the lot of officials at that level are not ripe to be picked. Their is a great demand for officials at the D2/3 in the east coast. So it's not unlike some officials working 6 days a week. At least at the mens side the officials I know take pride in staying in good mental, physical condition.So many of these official have been doing this for many years. It's bullcrap what Knight is saying. he has to blame someone for his 5 game skid.. You don't here that from Coach Krzyzewski.

I like that staement a whole lot better...And I agree with you!

Someone mentioned the issue of independant contractor status being the reason that the number of games per week could not be limited.

Its not that hard, the independant contract excuse is a red herring.

All that would have to be done is make the contract for a game require that the official be in town 24 hours before the game time or specify in the contract what they could do for a period of time before a game. Unless they could book 2 games in the same town, they couldn't do back-to-back nights....or they would be inviolation of the contract terms.

I disagree with that statement. This is America, if an official is capable of doing multiple games in a week such as 6 games in 6 days why not? Basketball season is short. If the officials were not harrasses as much as we get, maybe you might be able to get more possible candidates in the pipeline. So there wouldn't be a shortage of potential officials.

There are conferences that stipulate that you have to be in town the evening before if you have an afternoon game. But conferences would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did what you suggested. They would lose a lot of good out-of-region officials. You also have supervisors who assign for multiple conferences. Those conferences often schedule their games so that officials can work one night in one conference and the next night in the other conference.

:eek:

You obviously have not been reading any of the articles re: Coach K and officials/officiating the past few years!!!!

I've seen too many games over the years where the K should stand for king of whiners!:(

Respectfully, I think you guys are missing Camron's point. I don't think he's advocating the contract stipulations. I think he's merely pointing out that being an "independent contractor" has limits that can be worked into the contract.

The statement "Conferences can't limit the number of games an official works because he/she is an independent contractor" is not true. I think that was Camron's only point.

Am I right, Camron? If so, where's my cookie? :)

But like I said, conferences would lose out on some good officials who travel to work for them. Someone who works in both the ACC and Big Ten, but lives in the Southeast is not going to sacrifice ACC games just so they can be in town 24 hours ahead of time to work a Big Ten game and the same for a guy living in the Midwest who works in both the Big 10 and Pac 10.

And as long as we're getting political about this, I think it's fair to say that some officials are hired based on their race.

Popcorn anyone?

Yes. And their gender, and their geographic location. And their job. And who they know.

Peace

I made no claim about whether they should or should not be woring 6 days in a row. I only dispelled the claim that being indpendant contractors prevented a conference from putting "rest period" requirements on the officials. They could put anything they want in the contract. The officials that didn't want to abide by the terms wouldn't take the games.

You really think there would be a shortage of officials wanting to work D1 games?

If the smaller leagues did it without the top leagues, it would hurt the smaller leagues.

But, if the top conferences made it a requirement for thier leages, do you really think those top officials would chose to give up the ACC, SEC, PAC10, etc. games and, instead, take the Mid-America, Big Sky, etc. games?

Sure, that would keep the top officials from working the smaller conferences in between the bigger games...but the ACC, SEC, etc. would not be that concerned for the officiating of the smaller conferences. They primarily care about thier own games.

You also have guys who work ACC one day, Big East the next, A-10 the next. You also have mid-Majors who are trying to move to the next level and hiring top notch officials. They are willing to have an official work the Big-10 one day and their own conference the next. Unless you get at all the majors to agree it will never work.

Would you like to be more clear about that statement?

Are you saying some officials are hired because they are black, white or other?

cite, please

I realize that Coach K is one of the more vocal coaches on the court and doesn't have a great reputation for keeping his cool in the midst of a game, but he is the antithesis of Knight in the post-game press conference. I can't remember the last time he made a disparaging remark about officiating to the media. Do you care to enlighten me?

He makes disparaging remarks directly to the officials during the game instead. He's a world-class whiner, moaner, b!tcher and complainer, right up there with Jim Boheim. Knight doesn't whine as much <b>during</b> a game as Coach Krybaby does.

Cite? Just watch a Duke game. Any Duke game.

I would hope race wouldnt have anything to do with it.

If gender is a factor in the Women's game, I expect race to be a factor in the Men's game. Also considering that the majority of college players tend to be of a certain race, I would expect Men's assignors to find officials that look like many players and even coaches. I bet the MEAC and SWAC are looking more for a certain race of an official as compared to other conferences. We need to stop living in this fantasy world where we only think people are chosen for anything based on how good they are. How good someone is very subjective anyway. People are hired at the college level for all kinds of reasons and often it has nothing to do with how good you are.

Peace

I agree with what you are saying Jeff, but it still doesn't make it right, it just makes it a reality...

Reason all these older guys are working and you are not seeing younger officals is because the coaches trust the older guys and know how they call.
Its getting harder and harder for a white guy to be a college offical. Im not trying to use the race card. Im just passing on what a D1 offical told me. They are looking for black men in mens and looking for women or a black woman is a plus in the womens side of basketball.
As for the amount of games worked.... If you got travel expense like the college officals do you would gobble up as many games as you could. Ex. An offical lives in Dallas. They are assigned a game at UCONN. They get travel from dallas to UCONN. Then the next night they have a game at UMASS. Well they get travel from Dallas to UMASS, instead of from UCONN to UMASS.

Why does it not make it right?

Peace

No it's not, there's tons of phenomenal officials working at the D2, D3 and JuCo levels who are just waiting for their break. I do not put myself in this group although I have worked with some who are ready.

Because we live in a world that is suppose to have over come such obstacles.

Because hiring someone based on race, gender, sexual orientation or anything else other than skill and ability, is discrimination....something that I thought this country was trying to get away from.

I'll take myself as an example. I want to stipulate right up front that I'm speaking for myself. I work for a couple of associations. I accept the games and the work that benefits me most. If one of the other associations sends me 60 to 75 miles away all the time and the other send me 10 to 25 miles away. where do you think I going to accept more games? The same goes for when and if someone tells me where and when and how many games I'm going to work. It's a choice. These officials get those D1 assignment have earned and diserve that honor. Again why and what does it matter if they work 1 or 6 games a week. Becuase Coach Knight says so. Maybe he should learn how to treat his players nicer. I don't tell him how to coach..

And yes I think that we are human, most will take the path of least resistance. it will bring a shortage to the pool..

Also keep in mind of all the abuse, the threats, the violence that we face. At what point does that small amount of money we earn make it worth it. I primarily do it becuase I love it.

Let me put it to you this way. There was a time when the only people that worked these games at all looked like a certain group of people, despite who was on the court and who were the top performers and where they came from. In some of these conferences there were no players of certain colors or races even allowed to participate at a particular school, whether they were in the South or the North.

I was watching Kentucky-LSU last night (the very end of the game) and there was only one Black official on the game when the vast majority of players were of that same color and even one of the head coaches were of that same color. And that is with the Supervisor of Officials of the SEC being an African-American.

Race and gender can always be a factor in hiring. If I work for a company where the vast majority of my clientele is of one race or gender, it is perfectly legal to hire people that look like the vast majority of that clientele. That is different than excluding people just because of their race or gender. This is the reason you see a lot of female official working D1 Women's ball because the coaches and all the players are female. It only makes since to have people that can relate or have similar backgrounds to the players. Part of our job is to be able to deal with players and coaches in very hostile situations. I am sure the assignors want people that are used to situations with certain kinds of players and coaches. If you have never worked with potential D1 players, you might have a harder time dealing with those kinds of players when the lights come on.

Peace

yes and that is wrong, some very smart and influential people worked to make it so that didn't happen any more.

Using race or gender as a hiring factor, by definition excludes people who are not of that race or gender.....thereby making it discriminatory and socially wrong....however I don't live in a vacuum I know it happens, it will continue to happen, and it will affect both genders and all races at some point. I just have a problem with it when it appears to be a double standard.

I Think that this thread is going in the wrong direction, Although very interesting. This post had nothing to do with gender, race or religion. we know that this country as much as they say is very fair, we know damn well there is a lot of prejudice. In every category. we all feel it in some way of another.

That's not my point, and that was not the point of the original post about Coach K. That poster was trying to equate Bobby Knight's blaming his 5 game losing streak on the officials.

For as bad as Coach K is on the court - and I do recognize this - I cannot EVER remember him blaming a loss, or a losing streak, on the officials.

The conversation at hand has nothing to do with in-game behavior. It has to do with the contention that Coach K whines to the media about officials. I think that's patently false.

Who did Coach K blame for the 4-game skid his team went on recently? Certainly not the refs.

Fine. After the game is over, he's an angel. During a game, he's worse than Knight imo when it comes to whining and crying. Stick up for him, being the good Dookie fanboy that you are..:) ..just don't try to intimate that he's a beacon of sportsmanship. He's a good coach, but he's also a world-class whiner. Jmo, and I ain't a fan of any other team in his league either. I'm just a fan of officials.

Just so you know, it still happens where people of certain races cannot get any significant opportunities even in places where they are by far the majority. I just saw report on contracting in the Chicago area and the stats of people of color not getting opportunities despite being the population majority.

I guess schools like Florida A&M or Grambling St. should not hire African-American teachers and faculty because that would be excluding Caucasian and Hispanic teachers from opportunities. Forget that facts the vast majority of their students are African-American or the mission of the schools are to give opportunity to African-Americans where they have not been allowed in other parts of the education system.

BTW, the two conferences these schools are members of seem to have the vast majority of their officials in at least Football and Basketball is African-American. I have seen Caucasian and Hispanic officials work games in very rare cases, but I would not on the surface want to not accurately represent the officials and different than the players, coaches, fans and administration. BTW, the only female official to ever work the NCAA Men's Tournament, came from the SWAC Conference. So let us not act as if there is complete equality already in hiring. I am sure there are female officials perfectly capable to work the Men's game but that does not happen for the most obvious reasons. Why is that OK but when you put race into that factor it is not OK? Just something to think about I guess.

Peace

Where did I intimate that he is a beacon of sportsmanship?

You didn't. He isn't.

Just so we understand eachother. :)

I never feel it is wrong to talk reality about hiring. Race, gender, social economic statuses are never wrong to talk about when it comes to issues like this. If you hire newer officials to a conference based on what Bobby Knight wants to be accomplished, you will have to consider these factors into that. If you go to any college camp this is discussed rather openly or honestly, not sure why we cannot discuss it here. I guess we still live in a society that wants to stick their head in the sand about these issues.

Since you did mention religion, I did work a playoff game at a site that had multiple players were wearing Yamica (sp?) and one kid was wearing a head dress that I believe has a Muslim significant or some other Religion you might see practiced in Asia or parts of Africa as much more of a norm. When was the last time you saw an official wear something like this when they officiate (in any part of the world)? So religion can and has played apart in what we express or not express when we officiate.

Peace

I don't think Knight was "blaming" officials for a loss. I think he was making a point that he didn't feel the officials had their A game because of their schedule.

Good Point!

He created this thread. He could lock it or delete this on his own if I am not mistaken.

peace

Sigh. Sometime around noon today (CST) I read this thread and noticed that the topic had turned to race. I thought about shutting it down then, but since everyone had been civil, .....

I was wrong to keep it open. Since some good information was in the first part of the thread, I'll just close it. I arbitrarily deleted all posts that were on the last page as I viewed the thread. Apologies to anyone whose post didn't really deserve to be deleted.