Flipping over
 

A1 has the ball after a rebound and is holding it with both hands about chest-high. B1 approaches A1 from behind, reaches over A1's right shoulder with his right hand and secures his hand under the ball. A1 bends over and, with B1's hand locked in between the ball and A1's shoulder, flips B1 over his back.

Assuming there's incidental contact with B1 reaching over the shoulder, what do you call?

I have a hard time picturing the "reach over" without the commission of a foul. What, did the defender have a rubber arm?:eek:

You got a REACH on B1, then an OVER THE BACK on B1.:D

WOW! Did that really happen?

Have to see it but I've seen ugly legal dribbles, would that be considered an ugly held ball? (unless A1's actions were flagrant)

I have never called a "Reach or Over the Back" foul. Until there is contact instigated by the defenders action, I got no call or a held ball.

The ball is high enough that B1 can reach over A1's shoulder without really causing any significant contact.

I'm having a discussion with a friend regarding this situation, so I didn't see it, but trying to describe it as he did.

Both players had hand(s) on the ball. A tried to get the ball away, but was unable to do so without "excessive force". What's the call?

Reach?
Over the back?

I've either got a held ball or a holding foul.
That would be one to see. Yes, that would be one to see.

In this situation, though, A1 flipped over B1 AS SOON AS his hand became lodged under the ball. This is a borderline held ball, but IMO, A1 created unneccessary and quite possibly dangerous physical contact. To me, it's akin to a player pushing another player during a jump ball to try and get the ball away. Sure, by definition a jump ball has occured, but before you can blow the whistle for the jump ball, some serious physical contact occurs.

I don't see how you can put the responsibility on A1 for "creating" the contact here. A1 is certainly within his rights to bend over to keep B1 from stealing the ball. Much in the same way a player is allowed to rotate his hips while his elbows rotate with his body to keep defenders away. To me, B1 put himself at risk by reaching over the shoulder to attempt to steal the ball and of contact results from that, it is B1's responsibility from that point.

please tell me you mean B1 created the contact....all A1 did was move the ball....it was B1 who put themselves in a bad spot...I cannont envision a foul on A1, it is hard to envision calling a held ball, but I can't say it wouldn't happen, most likely a foul on B1 in my opinion

I cant imagine this just being "incidental" contact if B1 is coming over the back. If there is contact on any part of A1 other than the hand holding the ball, it is a violation on B1. Correct?

Held ball.

We had a few ugly looking held balls last night, but there were no fouls on the play.

Do you really have a held ball if the Defender only has one hand on the ball?

Particularly if its with one hand and the arm is between the ball and the body. How is this accomplished with out creating illegal contact?

[quote=BadNewsRef]Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

well maybe not as good as JR; he is always sharp on the rules:)

[QUOTE=Splute]Is that 2 hands or 4 hands?

By your post, you seem to imply 4 hands. We can have a held with 2, 3 or 4.

Hold your arms out, shoulder height, in front of you. There is room for a player, especially if he is taller than you, to reach in and put a hand on the ball (ONE hand) without creating significant contact.

Then you, with the ball, lock his arm on your shoulder, bend over and flip him over. The ONLY contact B1 has initiated is ON THE BALL. I don't have the NFHS rule book handy, but 10.20.1 in the NCAA book says: A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her own body into other than a normal position; nor use any unreasonably rough tactics. This SCREAMS rough tactic to me. Also, it impedes the progress of B1 trying to make a defensive move on the ball.

[QUOTE=Splute]As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her <b>hand(s)</b> on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.

Contact occurring after the held ball is called may or may not be incidental, even though the contact might be severe. Judgment call whether it's a foul or not, but if you do call it, it has to be an intentional or flagrant technical foul, by rule and definition(R4-19-1NOTE&4-19-5c).

That's my take on it, News.

In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.

[quote=Jurassic Referee][quote=Splute]As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.


Jurassic I respectfully disagree that there is no difference. If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...

What is the justification for the way you read this?

Can you not see justification for a held ball with only one defensive hand on the ball?

It's not well worded by the FED. Each opponent could have only one hand on the ball and it can still be said that they have "their hands" on the ball.

Very thought provoking. That is why I enjoy these conversations. Perhaps I would be starting off wrong, but I think I would rule "pushing", 9 out of 10 times. In my limited mind it really depends on B1s position and I have to consider contact with him over the back. But as stated, if it CAN be a held ball and that was called before the pushing, it is done.

Your 2nd statement directly contradicts your 1st statement. One hand can be strong enough to cause a held ball. What if B1's one hand is used to hold the ball against A1's body while A1 has two hands on the ball.

Again a good perspective, but in my mind A1 has possession and position. B1 is taking a dangerous position reaching over A1. It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball? Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.

Some points....

- If A1 is moving the ball <b>after</b> B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball?
- Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2.
- It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the <b>subsequent</b> contact is incidental or not.

Definitely not the split second.

It's something you have to get a feel for. I still haven't perfected it. Ocassionally I will blow a held ball too early. I'm usually guilty of this if I feel the game is a little rough.

Last night had a GV play-off game between arch rivals. We must have had at least 10 held balls.

I agree it is judgment; all valid points. I looked up the rule you mentioned (4.27.2) but also read 4.27.5 which seems closer to this situation. Your thoughts on that Art.?

However also read NFHS rule 4-27-5. I agree with most of your points JR. If you deem it a held ball then the contact occurs, you go with the held ball. However I have a hard time believing that moving the ball causes undo roughness, and would be more inlcined to use 4-27-5, at least as I read the situation....

4-27-5 isn't applicable because it refers to contact occurring <b>before</b> the held ball, not after.

Btw, rules are denoted with a dash between them--i.e. Rule 4-27-5. If there are dots between the numbers, that refers to case book play--i.e. something like 4.25.2.

Thanks for the distinction on typing the rule numbers.

So back to the case in hand.... nothing has been called yet, B1 reaches over A1 with one hand and in an attempt to get, at a minimum a held ball call, (best case, rip the ball away form A1) he makes contact when A1 pulls the ball away...... It is an unfavorable position for B1, I lean in favor of A1 and call the contact on B1. All of this happened in a second, can you really call held ball before the contact? My last thoughts... thanks.

If you think that it's a held ball, you call the held ball. What happens <b>after</b> the held ball is a completely different call to be made(or not made).

Don't overthink plays like these. Just make your call and get the ball back into play asap. If you're questioned, you simply say "Imo it was a held ball".

Good point,

The only problem with that is that B1 did (edit) NOT cause the contact. B1's only action was to grab the ball without contact. A1, in trying to get it away from B1 pulled B1 onto A1. That is essentially undue roughness.

I've got no more than a held ball. Certainly not a foul on B1 for being pulled into A1.

This sounds more like a game of twister than basketball.

I am having a very difficult time picturing how a player can reach over a shoulder and get a hand under the basketball and have enough control over it to justify a held ball.

The way I read the held ball rule you have two ways of getting one:

1. By stopping a shot or pass...not the case here.

2. By having dual control of the ball where it will take undue force to gain sole control.

So #2 is the issue, and frankly I cannot see how a player behind, can get under the ball, have dual control...any control for that matter...to justify calling a held ball.

What I get from the OP is B1 got his arm pinned going for the ball, he couldn't control the ball with one hand and expect to pull it away from A1, in fact from the position B1 was in, I seriously doubt his palm was even on the ball...unless he was double jointed, and even then I have a hard time judging one hand equals two for dual control.

Without seeing it, I'm leaning for a foul on B1 and possibly a T on A1 for the judo move.

When I initially see this, my mind thinks in regard to rule 4-27-5: If however a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

I follow your perspective in the initial act of B1 reaching over without contact. I have no call there. B1 puts one hand under the ball. I still have no call at this time; neither held ball or pushing. But in my mind any subsequent contact due to B1's unfavorable position is still on him, not on A1 trying to maintian possession.

But as JR stated. If you see held ball first, call it. Nothing matters after that (except flying elbows, etc. etc.)

Isn't this only true for an airborne player who is shooting or passing?

I'm presenting this under the assumption that B1 did NOT make contact with A1 while going for the ball. Therefore, they are both responsible for any contact made after that point.

NCAA 10.20.1 makes no distinction about having possession of the ball in initiating rough contact or bending unnaturally. To me, it's just as if A1 had grabbed B1 by the arm and judo flipped him to the ground. B1 had a legit play on the ball, and unncessary and rough contact was initiated by A1......T.

let's change it a little
 

Let's say rather than move the ball...A1 jumps do you still put the onus on A1 for initiating the contact?

I vote for this one. ;)

If A1 jumps I am likely calling for an ambulance because B will have a broken arm.

The one time I called Held Ball when a defender reached over the back was due to a much taller B1 grabbing the ball from A1, with both hands and no contact. Although it seems like A1 had the ball a little higher than his chest....

but does it change whether you call the foul on A or B or a jump?

Airborne, but does it matter?

I did say it wasn't important to the play in question.

Not to the play in question, but it is important to newer officials who don't know it, in general.

Which is what their rule book is for.

I do not believe that every small detail of the complete rule needs to be presented in every post, especially when it is part of the rule that is not important to the topic at hand.

I tell every new official the same thing:

Just because a vet tells you something...in this case writes...doesn't mean you take it at gospel, even if I tell you something. You get your rule book, look it up and then read how I was right.;)

Yeah, because people never go off topic in the middle of a thread. :rolleyes:

I wasn't even going off topic - I was clarifying a very general rule reference you made on this topic. Give me a break... :mad:

You were clarifying a part of the rule that wasn't relevant to the OP, which is what does pull things off track in so many threads when everyone goes super anal or start taking grammar shots and all of that nonsense...it isn't a personal attack on you, it's my pet peeve.

I agree completely.
http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-PretentiousPanda.jpg

Imagine this....rebound coming towards a spot where A1 and a slightly taller B1 are waiting with B1 behind. Ball is high, roughly over A1's head. B1 gets his hand on the ball that is right above A1. A1 also reaches straight up and get's both hands on the ball and pulls it down in front. Were it not for A1's pull, B1 would have never touched A1.

My rule book says HANDS not hand. Unless you are talking Dr. J versus a 10 year old, it is darn near impossible for one person to have two hands firmly grasping the ball and another with one hand on the ball and have a held ball.

One it isn't written that way, and two if I have two hands on the ball and you have one, it's isn't going to take undue force for me to get the ball away from you, so that part of the rule isn't met either.

IMO, there isn't a held ball in the OP since none of the rule is met. You either have a foul on B1, a foul on A1 or a foul on B1 and a T on A1.

If A1 and B1 each have a hand on the ball, there will be hands on the ball. I agree that it could mean that each player must have two but it could just as easily mean that collectively they have hands on the ball.

It also seems to me that a player that has one hand on the ball has a pretty good grip on the ball if his entire body is moved when an opponent pulls on the ball.

Consider a slightly different situation...yeah, I know it's improbably but it is to illustrate a point....

A1 holding the ball with one hand. B1 approaches and gets two hands on the ball and starts pulling. A1 maintains his grasp on the ball with one hand (sort of holding it in the crook of his elbow). A1, holding onto it so firmly, is slung around B1 as B1 continues to try to shake A1 off the ball. But A1, somehow, is able to hang on. Held ball? Or what?

A ball is loose on the floor. A1 dives for the ball and grasps it with two hands. B1 dives for the ball (without contacting A1) and manages to place one hand on the ball. THis often results in a held ball.

Over the back? Sorry Coach ... no such thing.

How about A1 goes up for a layup, B1 comes in and blocks the ball to the point where both players come down with 1 HAND EACH on the ball, I'm calling a jump ball, are you not because a player or both players didn't have both hands on the ball?

That isn't relevant to the discussion, we aren't talking about a shot being stopped from release.

And it often gets called incorrectly too. I don't know how many times I've seen a player reach for the ball and just touch it, then look at me waiting for the whistle.

Even if you want to read into hands as meaning any combination between opponents of 2-4, the rule still states FIRMLY and UNDUE ROUGHNESS to gain control.

Most times when the ball is on the floor we aren't talking about just a hand contacting the ball, it's usually hand, wrist and arm as well.

In the original post I see noway that B1 could get into a position coming from behind, and over the shoulder, to get a firm grasp on the ball. My partner and I tried it in the dressing room before our game last night, and I even stood on a bench to add a nearly 2 foot height difference, and it's impossible.

The human arm does bend enough to reach over and under, and grasp the ball without contact. You can't grasp the ball firmly from that position, and it wouldn't take undue roughness to get sole control by A1.

Common sense tells me what actually would occur in the OP is B1 makes the move for the ball. His chest is contacting A1's back, and the back of his arm is contacting A1's chest. Not hearing a whistle, A1 pulls his arms in, pinning B1's arm in the process, and thus making the contact more noticeable. Still not hearing a whistle A1 decides to get B1 off him by doing the little judo move. This is a lot of things, but a held ball it isn't.

Really Over The Back
 

Boys varsity last night. Offensive player A-1, in the corner, fakes an overhead pass to a teammate at the top of the key. Defensive player B-1 jumps with the fake and "rolls" over A-1's back. I'm watching for A-1 to lose control of the ball, travel, fall down, not complete his pass, etc., to call a foul on B-1. None of those happen. Instead, after B-1 "rolls" over A-1's back, A-1 simply passes the ball to his teammate at the top of the key who drains a three. As I'm in transition after the basket, Coach of Team A asks, "Isn't that a foul ?". I respond, "Coach, the contact didn't cause anything to happen". He says "OK". I'm sure that his team making the three helped temper his response to what he thought was a foul. I'm just glad that I "dodged a bullet".

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.

I always thought that the rules were written in that one hand was okay to cause a held ball in this situation because you normally shoot with one hand. But I guess that's not the case with a throw/pass.

As I'm in transition after the basket, Coach of Team A asks, "Isn't that a foul ?". I respond, "Coach, the contact didn't cause anything to happen".

That kind of comment can get you in a lot of trouble. I'd rather just be honest with the coach and say yes, i messed up, was surprised, and couldn't put the air in the whistle. Or if it's a dead ball and he asks, even a longer explanation (2 sentences instead of 1) - I was waiting for your player to hit the floor, and just so surprised your player stayed on his feet.

Actually, on second thought, as soon as he asked, i would have given him the stop sign, and warned him 5 times before T'ing him up with 30 seconds left in a close game. :D