Make the dam call!!!
 

Just gonna vent for a second. Me and my partner tonight, (both top tier varsity guys in our chapter), covering a last minute jr high game tonight. Home team has bad number in the book, calls me over, easy T right? My partner says man just change it and lets go they're jr high boys, don't whack em. To which I reply, now what am i gonna tell the visiting coach when he doesn't his shots and the ball, especially if this comes down to a 2 point game.

Visitors shoot 2, make one.

Well guess what the final score is, Home 35-Visitors 36. Why are officials scared to death the call a damn tecnical, its as common as a travel. Just make the damn call!

CLH
ok, done venting.;)

Good call, CLH !

I will give you a simple answer, "it is not the same." I know we like to talk about how it is, but it is not. I can speak for myself on this. I do feel that I want a technical to be just as obvious as a T. Whether we like it or not, we are not scrutinized as much for a T. Just read other posts where people are going to write letters about an official that gave a T.

Peace

Yes they won by one point .... but what about the other 35 that were scored?

Its not ALL about the T.

Ok, I'm not trying to be a jerk or argue, but comments like that drive me nuts. To me, they are cop outs for the ones among us that don't want to admit we missed a call or had a bad game. I'll be the first one to say that officials don't decide games, but we definetly can have a huge affect on them, which is why our common motto is "Get the call right." :)

CLH

It also depends on why the mistake was made. Was the name wrong because the information was given was not correct or was this a mistake by the bookkeeper that put the wrong information in? If that is the case I agree with you. But why did you cave in? If you felt that strongly about it, you should have administered the T. Getting mad here is not going to change that fact. ;)

Peace

Rut, I think you're misinterpreting what CLH is saying. CLH is saying that he called the T when the predominant majority of officials would've just let it slide, so I think the two of you are in agreement. CLH took some issue with RefDaddy's comment because he feels that his comment was a cop out, or a rationalization of mistakes by officials, where CLH feels that we shouldn't rationalize, just strive to get calls right and admit mistakes when we make them. Just clearing that up ;)

As for the book, I will have a coach or assistant coach initial that everything is correct when I check the book so that if this situation arises I don't have to be a detective or rationalize why mistakes are made. I had a situation in a playoff game last year where a player from the visiting team had to be added to the book late and we started the game with FTs, and the coach couldn't argue because it was his mistake for not verifying the info.

My attitude is that we should not be afraid to make the correct call whether that be a technical foul, intentional foul, or a travel. Officiating is about courage.

Do it right and don't worry about it. Good job, CLH. :)

I see that he called the T, but so what. He made the right call. Why does it matter that his partner wanted to not call the T?

Also I think it is a generalization to say that officials are afraid to make this call. I have never had that discussion with a partner that I can ever think of about that kind of situation. I hope he has more evidence than just one experience. I have known many officials that have handed out this T, I know I have twice already this year and the only debate I had was with the coach (he blamed me for the mistake thinking I was supposed to catch his mistake).

Peace

As for the book, I will have a coach or assistant coach initial that everything is correct when I check the book so that if this situation arises I don't have to be a detective or rationalize why mistakes are made. I had a situation in a playoff game last year where a player from the visiting team had to be added to the book late and we started the game with FTs, and the coach couldn't argue because it was his mistake for not verifying the info.[/QUOTE]

SM,

If the mistake is because of transcription or clerical error, then having this coach initialize the book does not make it his/her mistake. As Rut said, look at the reason for the mistake. Coaches are busy immediately before a game and they have complied by submitting a correct roster or starting lineup. Now, you want them to verify someone else's work right before the game.

If the mistake is because of transcription or clerical error, then having this coach initialize the book does not make it his/her mistake. As Rut said, look at the reason for the mistake. Coaches are busy immediately before a game and they have complied by submitting a correct roster or starting lineup. Now, you want them to verify someone else's work right before the game.[/QUOTE]


yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

I concur on that statement totally!!!!!!

Not all about the T
 

From my read, I don't think RefDaddy was being condescending or trying to cop out from the T. He was saying the T was only 1 point. The Visitors still had to score 35 other points to win. So while the final difference was 1 point, you can't specifically say the 1 point from the T made the difference. The difference could have been the unguarded player who made the wide open layup.

Yeah, the T was right. But sometimes we don't realize that some junior high schools have coaches thrown into a position because they need a body and many times are just trying to learn to coach and make mistakes with their book. It doesn't hurt to have a graceful spirit and point out mistakes without penalizing. As a junior high coach and basketball official, I wouldn't be upset if the other team were not given a T because the book was wrong. It is not all about winning at this level.

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

Fine - but if I'm the coach - it's my T - administrative or not and it hurts the team i am coaching therefore - if I take my job seriously - its my responsibility.

What he said. The first thing I do in these cases is to find out if it's possibly a clerical error.

I agree with you, CLH (but I will make allowances for extenuating circumstances). Wednesday I was working a JV game. Sub comes in, table buzzes us, sub isn't in the book. I tell the coach, he says, "Yeah, he is, but he's under number 23. That's my bad." We signal the T, shoot the throws, move on with the game. That team lost by 2, but the T was hardly the deciding factor.

At the lower levels, us just giving the T becomes a learning experience for the coaches as well as being just takin' care of business.

At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

Here's the exact wording:

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

Just padding my post count this morning ;)

Yes. From a coaching standpoint, if I mess up my book in junior high, I am not going to get upset and accept my T. It is my responsibility.

Why have any rules at all. Why not just get the two coaches together before the game and decide together what rules you'll enforce for that game. Hey we could even poll the coaches on controversial foul calls.

I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same easy acceptance of the T "nine times out of ten." It's a basic life lesson for the kids: sometimes bad things happen because those above you screw up. Deal with it; move on.

I agree, no T. It's different. JMO

The reality is that the rules are optimized for the play of 16-18 year olds. To say that allowing a coach to hand wave a very technical violation of a rule for a game between 12 and 13 year olds is tantamount to throwing out the whole rulesbook is a bit extreme. Relax a bit and help the kids learn the game.

Well go ahead and have at me CLH, but I might have suggested the same thing as your partner for a junior high game.

Half the time when I help out with junior high games, the coach is some woodshop teacher that doesn't even know the game. I might not feeling like punishing the kids with an administrative T. Heck, I might just add the name to the book myself and have it be my dirty little secret. It all depends.

Problem is - then the woodshop teacher who knows nothing - still is a woodshop teacher who knows nothing.

I'm just going to be completely honest:

I would fix it and move on regardless of the other coach's reaction.

I just noticed zebraman's post: What he said.

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

I agree all the names and numbers should be in the book correctly and penalized when discovered to be incorrect. But what about the second part of the rule that says the home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time. If I followed that rule on the junior varsity circuit, we would be starting about 50% of the games with a T. Lots of games follow other games with 15 minute intervals and the books don't get together in time to copy everything within the allowed time frame.

How many of you strickly enforce that rule? If you don't, I don't see how you can enforce the first part of the rule if the book can be corrected prior to the game starting.

I have been known to stop the clock before the 10 minute mark to prevent some of this stuff from happening. I know the rule, but if I can prevent a book keeping error up front, I will.

[QUOTE=Eastshire]QUOTE]

:eek:

Again - if we teach 12 and 13 year olds/parents/coaches that it's just a minor unimportant "mistake" that can be forgiven - then we should not be suprised by thier outrage when they get the T at age 16-18. Giving the T teaches them that there is a consequence - even for coaches etc . If we forgive this, why not forgive the the intentional foul - just have a nice "church chat" with them telling them not to do it again. If a fight breaks out we could all sit around the center circle and have a discussion about "good touches and bad touches". Bottom line is - if we don't enforce the rules - they won't learn the rules. Enforce the rule, give the T and then explain at this level.

Had this situation that is similar.....HT (official scorer) is notoriously slow in getting things in the book....Visitors get him the info at the 12 minute mark....he's still writing at the 5 minute mark.....new coach for HT wants a T....No, I told him the book was made available before the 10 minute mark.

Right or wrong?

lol these MS games with these really life altering issues that HAVE to be dealt with by the letter of the basektball law cracks me up.

I am very proud that you knew the rule and you taught the 7/8th grade aspiring woodshop/bobby knight coach a lesson. [end sarcasm]

who cares -- by the book you are right and I agree with you -- by the laws of common sense I disagree and I would make it clear to the coach what IS expected of him and the book but MS -- you barely have someone to do the book, do the time, they probably practice twice a week for an hour with someone who probably isnt a very good coach but is there because he enjoys it. To go by the letter of basketball law in some situations is a bit far fetched IMO. [rant off]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. It isn't my job to educate the woodshop teacher. It's just my job to try to be fair and use common sense. If you were the R for the game and decided to assess the T anyway, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. No big deal either way.

I disagree. Going by the letter of the law in <b>some</b> situations <b>isn't</b> farfetched at all imo. Going by the letter of the law in <b>all</b> situations <b>is</b> farfetched.

Agree to disagree and keep it moving....
 

Seems to me that this is going to be a split topic. Half of us would administer the T, others wouldn't. Some call every travel that occurs in a 6th grade game, some don't.

CLH and his partner disagreed on how to handle the sitch, but CLH got his way, and they moved on.

I agree that at some levels you can do more teaching than administering, and to each his or her own. We should all know what the rules are, even if the coaches don't. The application of the rules is our most fundamental duty during any game, but we will ALL pass on some things that are clearly in violation of said rules. Otherwise, we'd still be reffing games from 2003 right now. CLH felt it was his duty to call the T this time, and he did. I wouldn't have, but that's me.

Hey, pretty soon we'll have middle school games on ESPN,.... hey don't laugh.

Coaches should know this rule. I learned my lesson from a T, and since then, I put all my players names and numbers in MSWord and just print it out before each game. Hence, if my bookkeeper screws up, I have hardcopy proof I provided it to them correctly.

Plus, with all this T talk, it's just a technicallity, hence the term "technical foul" , .....and it's not like an Official is gonna blow the whistle as loud as he can and give it his best Oscar performance "T" signal, I say call it every level......my 2 cents.

Agreed, and I think this is the salient point. You don't have to make a spectacle out of it and embarrass the offending coach, you can make it a teaching opportunity.

correct
 

you were correct.....there is a team in this area that has his names/numbers printed out on a piece of paper that just needs taped in the book...it works very well....as far as the OP I have handled it both ways in Jr Hi games

[[/QUOTE]

I think we should all agree to that!

that is why i carry a whiteboard and markers to the game...

yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!!:)[/QUOTE]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it? And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.
That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

[/QUOTE]

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no i diasagree and you are wrong -- the coaches job is NOT to baby sit the book to MAKE SURE that what HE gave them WAS entered AS he GAVE them.

you are taking the onus off the scorekeeper for screwing up and putting it on the coach. "coach do you want to double check the book" "I gave them all the info can the book not copy it in correctly."

having him check over it is not COMMON SENSE on HIS part -- yes for us it could alleviate issues for US and HELP US in our job. However IT IS NOT his duty to make sure that if he submitted #15 as the starter and the book entered it as #25 that HE should be held accountable because YOU think HE should do YOUR job.

everyone has a role -- who are you to get mad if you have much higher expectations from said role -- do you coach players while you officiate -- I know I do not -- I answer questions if a player asks but I dont coach, and a coach doesnt keep the scorebook. their role with the book ends once they submit starters -- from there usually each team has at least at the varsity level has a scorebook person who does it for all the games (home and away) thats their role. I am yet to give a pregame administrative T and I hope that never happens. If an administrative issue comes up during the game I try my darndest to make sure that the punishment I hand out IS aimed at the party responsible. If I can avoid an administrative T I will do whatever I can -- but if it turns out that the team was responsible and they were at fault then they earned the T. however a team has to be really negligent in reality to get a pregame administrative T.

hey deecee --- I totally disagree with you on this one, but, as they say, "opinions are like a$$oles - we all gottem and they all stink!" :) I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one!

Having him check might be a nice preventative measure but it in no way puts the onus on him to ensure that it is correct. The rules very clearly say that the team only has to provide the info by 10 minutes. Anything else is a clerical error.

I will NEVER give a T for an error in the book when the team provided it properly. It doesn't matter if you had the coach recite every entry in the book 10 times before initializing the book. To call a T in this situation is simply making up your own rules...and in a way that doesn't make anything better (and may make it worse).

It is complete NONSENSE to do anything else.

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Common sense and balls sometimes get in the way of each other. See my previous post and see C. Rust's post. I don't like the procedure - use it if you want, but don't throw out common sense when trying to determine the reason for an error in the book.

Had a T in a NFHS Varsity Boys game the other night, because of a "Admin. error".
Very experienced official told me it was a "clerical error" and no T...if he had been doing the game....Reason: "the table crew is part of "our" crew...so it is our mistake, not the coach's."

You make the call:

Mid way through the 1st Qt. player #45 was subed in before the second horn during a full time-out. Second horn sounds and players get ready for the throw-in. The table waves me over before we get the throw-in under way. The home book had player #45 (I'll call him Homer) listed as #41...as did the visiting teams book. So ol Homer was listed in both books as #41...not the #45 that he was wearing.

I got with my crew, informed both coaches of the T, and away we went.

Thoughts or comments? Such as where was ball taken out...T foul go toward the bonus...seat belt...etc?

good T -- no seat belt as that is not indirect or direct to coach and ball to other team at half court after free throws.

That should be the end of the argument because you can't say it any plainer or be any more correct as to how an official should properly handle these situations according to the rules.

However.......

...also, T foul counts toward the bonus. You passed the test deecee!;)

Ten Minutes - Rule Ten
 

Ranjo:

Where does it say that the "home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". I can't find that language in Rule 10.

If both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark, then they have complied with the Rule 10. If it takes the home and visiting scorekeepers nine minutes to copy that information into both books, then I don't see any reason for a technical foul.

Am I reading the rule incorrectly?

NO.<i></i>

Citation Please
 

Jurassic Referee:

Please give a rule citation for "the home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". The only reference that I can find regarding this situation is in Rule 10, that both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark. If both coaches handed to both the home and visiting scorekeepers, and possibly a neutral scorekeeper, as in a state tournament game, a piece of paper with the correct names and numbers of their squad and their starters at the 11 minute mark, I would have a tough time invoking Rule 10, and giving a technical foul, if the table personnel aren't finished copying this information into the scorebooks at the 6 minute mark. In this specific situation, to whom would you give the technical foul? What if the visiting scorekeeper copied from the pieces of paper first and finished at the 10 minute mark and then gave the papers to the home scorkeeper, who didn't finsh copying the information into his or her book until the 8 minute mark?

Please respond with one of your well respected rule book or case book citations.

Billy, my well-respected response is that I completely screwed up and read the last sentence of your first post incorrectly. My apologies. You were correct, and I meant to agree with you from the git-go. I went back and changed my response to reflect that.

BillyMac -

I got out the rule book and after reading the language in Rule 10, (CLICK) a light came on. I consider myself a pretty good rules person, but I have mis-read this rule for years. Thanks for your "enlightenment"

In the same Fresh/JV double ehader I posted about in another thread we had a pregame issue. The Freshman Game was between two "innercity" teams that are VERY bitter rivals. The Freshman game immediately followed a Frosh/JV/Varsity triple header between the same two school only on the girls side. The police always clear the gym and disperse the crowd before allowing the spectators in for the boys triple header. The girls game had OT so they were running very late. There was a lot of confusion between games, and in the rush to catch up game management started the warmup clock at 11:00!!!:eek:

Neither book was ready at 10:00 when I went to the table. No starters. In fact, the official scorer was outside helping with crowd control. I checked the game ball, made sure the AP Arrow worked, told the visiting scorer (who was still filling out her book ) that I would sign the book before the tip and went back to watching the warmups. I could've been really evil and assessed a double T and made both coaches have a seatbelt, but that would've been heavy-handed. Just the beginning of an adventurous evening.

I couldn't have done that.

Mick,
You failed to point out this error as well. ;)

I said couldn't, not shouldn't. :)