Who is working the Duke / UNC game?
 

I missed the tip, and have not been able to see any close ups on the officials. Who has the game tonight??

Teddy Valentine is one of them. I recognize the other Black official but I do not know his name. I do not know who the 3rd official is.

Peace

Interesting couple of sequences at about the 14:00 or 15:00 minute mark in the 2nd half.

Trap along the frontcourt sideline in front of the lead. He gives a non-standard signal to indicate that the player with the ball was bobbling the ball (I think to show NC coach that there was no control for a travel). As soon as he does that, the T comes in with a travel :eek: Coach K was not happy.

Then on the other end, there was no lead. Then into the picture comes a very late lead. I think they had two C's and one T for a few seconds. Maybe the L stopped to talk to Coach K on his way down? Couldn't see the entire F/C so it was hard to tell what happened.

Ohhhh boy...someone will have some explaining to do to their supervisor in the morning.

They will probably have a conversation tonight. I am sure an evaluator is there.

Peace

Good point.

I recognized Valentine, but the one (same that you mentioned) is making me think. Valentine had the OSU/Mich game last night.

I would put money on it that an evaluator is there.

Gary Maxwell
Ted Valentine
Reggie Greenwood

This is the first ACC game I've ever seen Reggie work.

Interesting plays:

Reyshawn Terry went down in the lane. A Duke player came into the lane and tripped over him. TV called the foul on Terry. That's contrary to what we've always discussed on this forum.

Deon Thompson went for a rebound stuff, missed the ball, grabbed the rim, and turned loose. Greenwood called a T, from the L. I;ve never before seen that call made.

Carolina by 4. :)

BTW, Carolina leads for the first time!

John Cloughtery may or may not be there.

These guys are veteran, Final Four officials. Evaluator? I doubt it. If you're capable of working the biggest rivalry in sports, you've already been evaluated several times.

For tomegun: Brian Kersey gave K the http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/stopsign.gif! I love it! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/2thumbs.gif

AFTER he grabbed the rim, though, he slapped it with one of his hands, kind of like a guy would slap the backboard after a dunk. To me, it implied a little bit of showmanship...does that make a difference in the call?

They still might have an evaluator there. That does not mean that they are going to go over the same stuff they would with a rookie.

Peace

Stoppage in play was for...???

I don't know what game you're watching but he did not slap the backboard. He grabbed the rim with both hands, and then released it before returning to the floor.

I didn't say there wasn't one there.

I said I doubt it.

Rookie. :D

BTW, that would be "rim" right? That is a mighty big grab. :D

Peace

After the 3 with 6.7 left it was 77-73, anyone catch the ESPN scoreboard read 77-76? I wonder who they want to win?! ;)

TJ, be glad you could watch ESPN. As bad as some poeple dislike Dickie V, at least you guys didn't have to listen to Billy "That's a foul, no call," Packer. :(

ESPN is blacked out here. We have to watch ACC regional coverage.

LOL amen!!!

Good point, Tony. However, I watched it with the volume very, very low. I did notice the other guy say whenever the ball was kicked one time that the team would get a fresh 35. :)

I used to listen to the UNC radio broadcast. But with satellite, TV is 10 seconds behind radio. :(

Reggie Greenwood and Teddy Valentine were 2 of the officials.

Bryan Kersey was definitely NOT the 3rd official working. I haven't looked up the boxscore yet....I'll do that now, hold on.

Well, the officials' names have not been posted yet, but again, I gaurantee Bryan Kersey wasn't working. May have been Karl Hess, but I thought he had more of a spiked hair-do.

I only watched the end but I did have to endure Billy Packer hollering for an intentional foul because Hansborough supposedly never had the basketball. Of course replay proved Packer wrong. ESPN was blacked out here b/c one of our local stations is an ACC network affiliate.

He would have to be pretty tall to release the rim after returning to the floor ;)

From the boxscore: Officials: Gary Maxwell, Reggie Greenwood, Ted Valentine

No it's not contrary to what we've stated on this forum. For NFHS this is NOT a foul per an old case book play which has now disappeared. However, the NCAA has an A.R. that says that this is a blocking foul. We've been pointing out that difference in the rules sets for a few years now.

Almost all Div 1 games have observers (evaluators) at the games no matter who good the officials are.

It's contrary to the high school interpretation, but I think we've talked about this difference before. Not sure if I can find an old thread, but here's the NCAA AR:

Correct call.

Read my post again. I didn't say he slapped the backboard. I said he grabbed the rim and then slapped it (THE RIM) as he was going down MUCH AS A PLAYER SLAPS THE BACKBOARD AFTER A DUNK.

I think the slap, not the grabbing of the rim, is what got him T'ed up. I'm asking if there is a rule supporting this.

I guess I'll answer my own question.

Rule 10.13 Grasping either basket in an excessive, emphatic manner during the officials’ jurisdiction when the player is not, in the judgment of an official, trying to prevent an obvious injury to himself, herself or others.

I'm going to guess that the slapping of the rim is what signaled the "excessive, emphatic" judgement by the L. Good call.

I do not know anyone that uses the term "slapping the rim." You grab the rim and you slap the backboard.

I just wanted to make that point to you. It is always better to use the terminology of the rulebook. The rulebook does not say “slapping the rim” is in itself a violation.

Peace

Thanks.

I understand that slapping the rim is not in and of itself a violation. However, I think that the slapping of the rim was perhaps the manifestation of "excessive/emphatic."

Watch the tape. He grabs the rim, then slaps the rim with an open hand. The way his body was moving, I would have (and I believe the L might have) given him the benefit of the doubt that he was trying to maintain his balance. But the slapping of the rim indicated to me emphatic/excessive.

I was not debating with you what happen on the play. Actually I do not care what he did because I saw the call. He grabbed the rim and was T'd up for it. That is good enough for me. From my point of view you are over thinking this. Hey, this would not be the first time this week for you would it? ;)

Peace

Good point. Thanks for the info.

Why are you so worried about "slapping" the rim when the guy grabbed the rim without having the ball to dunk it? That is why he got the T.

Camera Angle
 

Can someone tell me if the camera angle recently changed? The fact that we couldn't see the team benches during play at Duke seems to be new to me. It's possible that I'm clueless and it's been this way for a while / forever...but it justs seems odd that I couldn't see the team benches and scorer's table as I know I do in other games.

Whenever the main camera is bench-side you can't see the benches very well. I do remember watching a game once where the main camera on the other side, but most of the time the main camera is in a postion where's its hard to see the benches.

Duke has had their gym set up so the camera nests are on the same side as the bench/scorer's table for years now.

Then it's just me. But would you say in many / most other gyms and games we see on TV it is the other way around? It just looked very odd to me. So I must be used to watching other games where the main camera is set up across from the benches. That is much more interesting to me, as it's possible to see more interaction between officials and benches.

Duke has been like that for years. Kansas is another arena that also shows the court from table side. Not sure why this matters to you, but I am sure there are other gyms. Duke is always on TV and I am kind of shocked you just noticed this. I will also assume that this is the case because both arenas are much older than the TV era.

Peace

I'm shocked I haven't noticed it before as well. But it doesn't matter to me (I'm not losing sleep over it). I was just curious if it was new. And as I've said, I like the other view better as far as watching interactions with the bench. At least I was smart enough to know where to find the answer to my question. :)

To be perfectly honest, I DO NOT want to see the interactions between the coaches and the officials in most of these "big" games...the majority of the time the bench decorum guidelines are not followed and the game - at least in my opinion - becomes ridiculous because the coaches are allowed to rant and rave like lunatics...not really something I want to see. So at least when the cameras don't show the coaches I can enjoy watching the game...

Time for the NFL camera over top of the court on a string!

He was attempting to rebound the ball and dunk it in the same motion. A Duke player went up at the same time and knocked the ball away. The NC player did not hang on the rim, nor did he slap the rim in an attempt to show off or taunt. Why in the world is the Lead calling this anyway? Where are the Trail and Center on this call? IMO, that game was way more physical than the amount of fouls called.

Just so you know the rule has little to do with showing off. The rule does not allow for a player to grab the rim unnecessarily. And the lead official has the best angle to know if someone is under the player the basket and if the player might feel threatened. Usually we give the player the benefit of the doubt, but the rule is clear. The only time a player can grab onto the rim under NCAA rules is when they are fouled.

Peace

I can't believe no one recognized that the third official was Gary Maxwell, the alternate for the NCAA Championship game last year. Which will probably put him in on the Championship game next year.

Not everyone knows these officials by names unless they are in your market.

Also being an alternate does not mean you will work Championship the final game. All it means is they were asked to be the alternate if something happens. Also being an alternate from my understanding usually means you did not work any of the other Final Four games. For all we know he might not get close to that this year based on a bunch of factors that any of us know about.

Peace

I know the name, not the face.

Using Btaylor's theory, it would seem difficult for the same official to have the championship game two years in a row wouldn't it? I think that is some faulty logic. Additionally, it is my understanding that the alternate is the alternate for all three games during the final four. If that is the case, that official would be knocking on the door to the final four, not the championship game.

Exactly. He didn't slap anything.


I knew it was Gary, just typed the wrong name when I posted. Without getting a closeup look, Brian Kersey and Gary Maxweel have a similiar build and look. I was thinking of one and not the other when I typed.

Watch the tape. He slapped the rim. I replayed it at least 10 times on my TiVo.

Whether that had anything to do with the T is not really an issue to me anymore, but you're blind if you watch the tape and say he didn't slap the rim after he grabbed onto it.

Thanks. I didn't recall a discussion about an NCAA difference.

Could you show me anywhere in the rules where it say "slapping the rim" is a violation of any kind?

Peace

If you'll review the thread, I never made this argument. I never said it was a violation (actually, I believe I asked for clarification on the rule, and you did a masterful job clarifying). So I don't feel particularly inclined to answer your question (as I'm confident it's not in the rules, anyway).

I'm merely pointing out the fact that while BktBallRef claims that the UNC player didn't slap the rim - regardless of what that has to do with any sort of violation - he DID in fact slap the rim on his way down.

Are you going to answer my question?

Peace

Can you read? I just told you I'm not.

Earth to JRutledge: "I don't feel particulary inclined" implies "No." Sorry for using big words. I've learned my lesson.

This just goes to show my point. You are arguing a point that has nothing to do with the thread or what is being talked about. This is why other people asked you this question before.

We are here to talk about rules and situations surrounding the rules. What does slapping the rim have to do with this call in anyway? I am sure you think you know, but you are arguing and irrelevant point with someone that has been around here a lot longer than you. Since you know everything, I would implore veterans on this board to simply ignore you. Everything someone has to say, you “ya but…..” them.

I hope your career starts off much easier than your time on this board has. ;)

Peace

Let me explain this to you on a 3rd grade level.

I noted in the first page of this thread that I saw the UNC player slap the rim after he grabbed it.

I asked if this might have had anything to do with the technical (thus, how it relates to the topic at hand).

You said no.

I thanked you for your clarification and then moved on.

A whole slew of other posters THEN said he did NOT slap the rim (it's not MY fault they brought it back up).

I said he did. It's on video.

You starting b1tching again for no apparent reason.

Now I need an aspirin.

Capiche?

Actually, he didn't slap the rim. He released the rim and returned to the floor. Somehow, you seem to think you saw something that no one else saw.

But feel free to continue proving to everyone what an idiot you are.

I wonder how many posters you can store on your Ignore list. Does anyone know? Mine seems to be filling up with dumbasses.

Then you and I were watching two different games.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../feedtroll.gif

Peace

See for yourself. Watch his right hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_9v3rHaeY8

Yep, I see it.

Well, you must either be blind or an idiot then. ;)

Just my 2 cents here, it looked like he grabbed the rim with both hands as an attempt to dunk of the rebound and missed, then let go of the rim. But it seemed like his right hand slapped the rim also. But the bump by 42 white may have caused him to hold the rim. All judgement on behalf of the working officials. I trust their judgement.

I thought the game was called right on. I do not think there should have been a T on this play. A T on this play was a game interupting play and should have never been called.

What in the world was C coming over and blowing this when L said he was "bobbling" the ball and cound not travel? Coach K had every right to be mad on this play.....mad at Greenwood.

First of all this is why you do not give signals like the "bobble." Also for all you know, the official had a travel before the bobble or had a clear look at the travel before the L.

Peace

Just wondering if you'd like to amend that statement.

If he did slap the rim, so what? What does this have to do with the call or how does it change the call? I see the arm come off the rim but I do not know if I would characterize this as a slap. If he did slap the rim, not sure that would have changed anything.

Peace

It doesn't change the call. It does, however back up my first post in the thread and goes to the fact that I was basically called a liar by BktBallRef when there are several here who can see the slap of the rim after the grab.

Just wondering if BktBallRef wants to either keep calling me a liar or retract his statement.

FTR, here's what I first said about the slap:

IOW, I was asking a question and asking for clarification, since I don't know the rule very well.

Several, including you, JRut, have indicated that it doesn't make a difference in the call. I've accepted that, and again I appreciate your input.

With all due respect that is your interpretation of what took place. I do not know that I would call that a slap or an attempt to grab rim. But hey, I guess this is really, really important to you. Considering that this has nothing to do with any rule or why the actual call was made. As stated before, you are off to a wonderful start. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...images/wee.gif

Peace

I can assure you that I'm quite unconcerned with what type of "start" you deem me to be off to.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...mages/skep.gif

Peace

BktBallRef is a great official and a stand-up guy. I think he will admit he was incorrect in saying the player did not slap the rim. After viewing the video it is completely obvious that the player DID slap the rim.

As far as calling you an idiot...well...I guess he has some egg on his face for that one.

But we are all officials. Of course we are not perfect!:D

I have a prediction. BktBallRef will admit that there is at least the possibility that some could have seen a slap.

But he'll still call me an idiot, for various and sundry reasons.

Ah, well. What can you do? :cool:

Good Lord......:rolleyes:

Are you serious? If a coach calls you a f**king idiot, would you ignore that too because calling it would be a (gasp) <b>game interrupter</b>?

Lah me.......

If I ever find the goober who started this "game interrupter" boolsh!t, I swear that I'll strangle the sumb!tch with my bare hands.

With all due respect, Jeff....

<i><b><font color = red><font size = +3>Are you and Tony out of your freaking minds???</font></font></b></i>

You're trying to argue rules and situations with some troll that has already admitted that he doesn't own rule books, has never owned officials pants in his life and has obviously never been out on a basketball court with a whistle in his big yap outside of (maybe) the local YMCA. What's wrong with that picture? Tell him to screw off and then ignore him. You can't argue with somebody that doesn't know the first damn thing about basketball officiating but insists on trying to show otherwise.

Lah me, this forum is turning into Fanboy/Troll Central.

Didn't see the game live because I was (where else?) officiating. The video sure makes it look like the T was deserved. I haven't had any court experience with three-man, so I can't make any intelligent judgment about one ref making the call vs. the others.

Moreover, I have zero collegiate experience...but I still have trouble wrapping my whistle around a "game interrupting" call. Had a P tell me the other night that a 5-sec. closely guarded call was "game interrupting" and I should let it go unless the opposing coach yells for it. I will openly admit, even though I'm a rookie, I gave him a "ya, but" and then said I would enforce the rules to the best of my newbie ability. He grinned :D and said that was the answer I should have given him!

Don't get all pumped up; the term is being taken too far. Something that is deserving of a technical foul is in no way a game interrupter.

:D

Peace

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Good Lord......:rolleyes:

Are you serious? If a coach calls you a f**king idiot, would you ignore that too because calling it would be a (gasp) <b>game interrupter</b>?

Lah me.......

If I ever find the goober who started this "game interrupter" boolsh!t, I swear that I'll strangle the sumb!tch with my bare hands.

I am very serious.... There is no reason to call a T on a questionable call in a game like this. If he hangs on the rim.....stick him!!!!! If it is marginal then let it go. If a coach calls me a ********* as you mentioned you better believe he gets whacked. But do not "interupt" a game for picky.......(I'll use your word...... boolsh!t.

[QUOTE=tnzebra]Well, you had a very experienced D1 official that didn't think it was picky boolsh!t. What is "marginal" on any call is in the eye of the beholders imo--the "beholders" usually being the calling official and someone sitting in the fourteenth row. The calling official's supervisor will let him know whether it was marginal or not. That's who counts.

And as for "game interrupters", imo that may be the stoopidest concept that some yoyo trying to immortalize himself in officiating history could possibly come up with as his own personal catchphrase contribution. Every time you blow your whistle in the game, you interrupt the flow. And now it seems like any time that someone disagrees with a call that another official made, they try to justify their disagreement with the call by tsk-tsk'ing that it's a "flow interrupter". The only thing that I've really learned from this wonderful new concept is that officiating nirvana is a game where you never had to blow your whistle.

Iow, if someone wants to disagree with an official's call, then just do so. Say "hey, imo that was a cheap "T" that he called on the player for hanging on the rim". I don't have a problem with that and never have. Well, except maybe for fanboys like fiasco who don't know or understand the rules. :) All that is just a difference of opinion and a difference of judgment. Please, don't try to tell me that interrupting the game has anything to do with any call though. It's just not relevant in any way imo.


Sorry for the rant, but that one hits me like the "stopsign" hits Tomegun.

I'm not arguing with the idiot. I have him on Ignore.

Thompson grab the rim. As he released it and came down, his hand hit the rim again. He did not "slap" it, nor was that what the T was for.

Yeah, and Reggie Greenwood didn't give a T. He had his hand up and it just happened to come down on his other hand in the shape of a T.

:eek:

What does whether the ring was slapped or touched have to do with the actual call?:confused: Greenwood called the "T" on the player for <b>hanging</b> on or grasping the ring. The NC player that got the "T" never had control of the ball, so there's no way you can say that he was trying to dunk it.

The player simply hung on the ring.He got a "T" because Greenwood didn't think that he did so to avoid an injury. It's just a judgment call by a good official imo. Whether the ring was slapped or touched <b>after</b> the player grabbed the ring has got nothing to do with nothing.