fan with laser pointer
 

6th grade Tournament we hold every year, and last Saturday there is a report of a laser pointer aimed at shooter's eyes; one kid knows the general area the pointer is coming from and another one identifies the adult [geesh!] who is using the pointer. My response is to walk to the base of the stands [there's only about 4 rows] and inform the gentleman, who is sitting there holding the pointer, that he has to leave; he states "you're kidding, right?"; I state "No, I'm not kidding, I need you to leave now" and the site administrator shows up at that point to escort him from the gym. It was all very polite and very low key - I cannot think of reacting any differently than I did.

Of course, he apparently swore on his way out of the gym and his wife calls the AD midweek with a circular conversation and in the end wants to talk to me next week about embarrassing her husband, etc.

I did a search of the forum for laser pointer and see a very few references... one reference from Chuck Elias about a rule outlawing them. Any rules input regarding how I handled the situation or what good/bad could come from handling it differently?

Our own thought of how to best handle it differently goes something like: we identified him, so make an announcement and keep an eye on him, ejecting him if he persists... but I'm thinking that if the guy shines a laser pointer into the eyes of the kids, then no way am I letting him hang around! - and why tie up someone's attention watching him? Does it embarrass him less if the AD "takes his pointer away and puts it in a desk"??? :D

I would be especially interested in a rules reference specific to laser pointers [I'll keep reading later tonight!] because his wife told the AD that this week they are going to show up with the laser pointer again - but not use it! These folks must be in their 40s - it's very surreal to me.

Nope, pointing a laser beam into anyone's eyes is dangerous. See ya buddy. I don't have a problem with the way you handled it.

I work with lasers on a daily basis, and even the low power LED laser pointers can be dangerous if shined directly in the eyes - hence the warning label you'll find on every one of them (its required by federal regulation).

I agree completely this idiot had to go.....only thing I might have done differently is have the site admin deal with it from the beginning.....and I can think of at least one place to put it that's better than the AD's desk (shed a little light where the sun don't shine, so to speak.....).:D

(Sorry, I must hijack for a few).

Sweet Tim, what do you do with them? I've worked with some very powerful lasers in the lab, etc, but that's about it.

Only thing to do is to get Game Admin involved rather than addressing it yourself. But by all means, do not continue the game until it is resolved.

Mostly high precision metrology applications. The gear I work with can resolve measurements to 1 micron and angle/level to +/- 1 arc-second resolution over distances up to several hundred feet. These are primarily class 3a & 3b devices, but I occasionally work with some class 4 CO2 & Yag equipment as well - biggest was around 150 watts.

I need to know a little more about this laser pointer. What the heck is a parent doing with a laser pointer at a 6th grade game? And using it? Did you actually see him point it into the eyes? I would have given the parent a warning first to let him know (just in case he doesn't) it's illegal. If he shines it again, we're stopping the game and I'm going to have a conversation with this person.

I have forced fans to turn off cameras with the flash enabled or on. I look up and see that, beep, shut it off! Fans said nobody has ever made me turn it off before. I said if you don't turn it off, you or the camera or both is leaving this gym. If I was you, I would make it a practice to warn a fan first before tossing. This way, after the fact, you got that to fall back on. Now that the parent is questioning your actions, it would be nice to say you gave him a warning first which he did not heed, before you had him removed.

:rolleyes:

Never address a fan or ask them to leave.

Ask game management to handle the situation.

If this 'fan' is reading this, his next question will be "Can I have your schedule Old School?" To which you will reply, "I have no schedule."

Are you serious? He said this was an adult! What adult thinks it's perfectly ok to shine a laser pointer in the opponents eye when they shoot free throws? There is no way I let that idiot off with a warning! He gets ejected in a heart beat and he better hurry before I puke on his pants.

That is one of the funniest pictures ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me get this straight. His wife called the AD? His wife wants to talk to you about embarrassing him? Did his wife pay for his ticket to the game?

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Was his wife really big with a howler monkey voice and a moustache.:eek:

You didn't embarrass her husband. He embarrassed himself. Don't bother talking with this idiot, or his wife.

If you do talk to her, tell her to confiscate his toys next time she lets him out of the house to play.

You wouldn't use <b><i><font color = red> The Old School Stare of Immediate Painful Death(tm)</font><i></b> first?

Warning: Do not look into laser with remaining eye.

She paid the full $1, I'm sure. :)

Ok, thanks for the replies - I guess there is nothing specific in the rules regarding laser pointers and yes, I will remember to communicate with the fans exclusively through the AD next time. In no way will I believe a warning should have been given to an adult before ejecting them for this.

Not to an adult, a teen, or a chimpanzee. I'm walking right over to game administration, pointing the person out, and telling them to give him the heave ho. I've seen too many adults like this fool and his wife, who believe that there should never be consequences for their stupidity. And I know their kids, too.

Old School, I didn't think you could amaze me with your foolishness any more than you already have. Congratulations, you proved me wrong.

We are responsible for the safety of the players. That is dangerous behavior. that is also ludicrious behavior at a 6th grade game. Evidence Exhibit 1,243 in the Ignats theory that grownups shouldn't be allowed to attend kids' games.:(

Personally, he's lucky all I did was embarass him. And yes, I would personally ask him to leave and point him out to the site administrator. The game doesn't start until he is gone.

I will agree that shining the laser in a kids eye is wrong for an adult to do. Shining a laser in any players eyes is wrong. My point is this. Why not give people a chance. This is a game of competition and everyone is looking for an edge to help there teams win. Maybe some people cross the line as in this case, but I will never believe that the parent who also has a kid out there on the floor is trying to do harm to the other players. Consider this if you will. How would you feel if you walked over there and gave the parent a warning not to shine that laser again or he will be removed? The parent complies and there's no more problems the rest of the game. The game completes normally. How would you feel then? That's all it took! Isn't it at least worth a try? You didn't embarrass nobody, you got no after the game issues you need to go talk to some administrator about. You got no legal issues coming at you. Sometimes the simplest approach is the easiest approach.

My point is also this. One you locate who it is, you just told everyone else in the gym, particularly the opposition, that this moron is doing this and they will make sure that doesn't happen again, and if it does, somebody else will probably report him and you don't have to worry about it.

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Unbelievable. You get this idiot out of the gym immediately and hope that they never let him or his wife back in again! Those two need serious help.

:eek: :mad:

Where do I start. Does the concept of unsporting behavior ring a bell? Give soemone a chance? Hell no. That kind of idiocy is out the door for any game I'm working.

Ignore. Wrong.

Any parent who would try this to begin with needs to be taught a lesson by having him removed. No warnings, no pleases, and no thank yous. Laser pointers come with warnings, and a parent who read the warning and chooses to endanger another child's eyesight deserves a lot of punishment. Unfortunately, the most I can do is have him removed. Any parent who is ignorant of this warning needs a hard lesson to remind them to read the labels. He's done, and I'm not thinking twice about it. I'll never know how it feels to warn him and be able to finish the game peacefully.

No, perhaps Old School is on to something. Let's adopt this with our justice system. After a gangbanger shoots somebody, we just explain that it's wrong and we expect that he will not do it again. If he says OK, then why bother with any punitive action? We got what we wanted and we don't have to deal with the whole hassle of the legal system.

If the guy's wife wants to see her husband embarrassed, then perhaps charges could be laid against him. Pretty sure this behavior is unlawful in addition to being moronic.

Nothing like an "assaulting a minor" charge to teach a lesson.

Please tell me where you officiate. I want to be sure I don't have any relatives or friends in your state that can possibly end up in a game where you are working. Why not give people a chance to do what?!? Permanently injure a kid? This isn't just bad judgement on an alleged adult's part. It's CRIMINAL abuse!!!!

Although we may live in a litigious society, it's doubtful there's a basis for legal action, at least meaningful action. How about an 'enjoyment obstruction' theory? Judge---summary judgment for the defendant and awarded attorney fees.

Although, Old School, I understand your desire to give people a chance, a warning, in my opinion, would be inapropriate given the safety concern and considering that the perpetrator was an adult.

In regards to the wife requesting to meet with the official. Whoever fielded this request should have immediately told her---NO.

How about a meeting with the parents of the FT shooter?

God help the guy who shines one of those at my kid. God help me afterwards.

Now, now Ignats! You wouldn't want to embarrass anybody!

Well, that's both a redundant statement and an easily misinterpreted abuse of "simple" as an adjective. Did you mean "easy to understand" or "unlearned, as in ignorant," or perhaps "lacking mental acuteness or sense."

Truly, the easiest to understand is often the easiest, as is being ignorant. However, I find that lacking sense takes a great deal of effort.

You forget, as long as your consistent in your ignorance, you'll do fine. Old School might even assign you some of those career-enhancing YMCA games.

OS/JMO-This is insanity.

Can't stop laughing.......can't breathe......

Why? Do You breathe thru your kneecap?:D

Not sure I understand where I officiate has anything to do with this. My point is; no one was injured and there's no telling how long he was doing this b4 someone mentioned it. So if the parent was doing this and nobody got hurt. Telling him not to do it again is reasonable, at least to me it's reasonable. You must also tell him that it is illegal at any basketball game because he simply may not know. Aren't these the same lasers they use in some rock concerts? If they are, I haven't heard of anybody's eyes being put out here because of this. Maybe these parents are thinking the same thing. To me, this falls in the same category as artificial noise makers, or other devices used at the game to try and get an advantage.

Give the person the benefit of the doubt. Now that you have informed him that it is illegal. If he does it again, it's out and you got more people to help ensure it doesn't happen again. Jumping to the extreme like what was done put everybody on the brink. You took away any chance for the parent to not lose face and say, I didn't know and will never do it again. This is a good result too, even though nobody here will acknowledge it. Instead you choose the no other way option and now you got the worse coming at you. Now, the incident is not over. Several days later and you're still dealing with it. Your job is to officiate the game, not to police the event.

Not everyone keeps their genitals in the same place, Captain.

These are the same laser pointers used in classrooms and business meetings; the ones that come with warnings not to shine them in the eyes of anyone. It's not about the eyes being put out, it's about the long term damage. They're not just illegal, they're dangerous.

Where you officiate is relevant only in as much as none of us want our kids put in danger because some official wants to "give people a chance."

That sums it up quite nicely for anyone that might still be wondering what way to go.

One one side you have the opinion of <b>officials</b>. On the opposite side you have the opinion of <b>Old School</b>. Make your choice.

EXACTLY! Thank you, Snaq.

That's way over the top! No wonder I have such a bad attitude out here.

Yeah, I'm sure that's my fault. If that makes you feel better about yourself....

I understand now. You started in 12th grade and worked your way back to 1st grade and are still going. You certainly are not gaining wisdom with age.

Do you think getting (W)itch slapped would be embarassing? ;) Maybe Old School would know.:D

How patently ridiculous! Making a guy with camera not use the flash? That is going WAY to far. Let the dad take pictures of Johnny....most cameras will not take a decent picture without a flash.

The flashes in college and pro games are 100's of times more powerful than the little flash in a pocket camera. Those "pro" flashes aren't a problem so why would a tiny pocket camera flash be a problem. Even if they've got a nice digital SLR with an external flash, they're still no more than one tenth the power of the pro flashes.

I am going to have to stop you there. I think it depends on where it is used. I have seen people use cameras right in the view point of the FT shooter. I have also seen those lights from camcorders that I have had turned off in they are distracting. Usually these are brought to the attention by the coach or players. So I would not say it was ridiculous if the people are right off court. We are not talking about a huge arena where the flashes are several feet away.

Peace

You betcha...as long as the wife was willing to apologize for her husband's actions. However, as Old school mentioned, legal action may be forthcoming and meeting with the FT shooter's parents (plaintiff's star witness) before jury selction could be viewed by the court as tampering.

Note that he simply said if someone had a camera, he'd have them turn it off or leave the gym....no mention of them standing under the basket or how or when it was being used.

In a well lit gym, the strobe of a camera is hardy noticable. I've seen photographers taking flash photos from a few feet outside the mid-outer endline and I hardly notice the flash. They're just not bright enough or on long enough to be an issue.

Unless a court is extremely well lit, any decent photo will probably require a flash.

Laser pointed on the floor or a player, he's gone!! No warning!!

I agree with not telling them to turn it completely off. I am just saying that if someone said this was a distraction, I would address it. I would ask kindly to have them turn off the light or the distraction. If you people know this is OK, they might just use these devices on purpose to cause a distraction like purposely shinning light or flashes in the eye sight of a FT for example.

Peace

This is one of the most ridculous statements I've heard yet. This is an adult at a kids sporting event for godsakes! It would be unreasonable conduct at any event. Do you also give warnings to all the coaches and players before you issue fouls because maybe they didn't know it was illegal?? Do you not eject a kid for a flagrant foul because maybe they didn't know they couldn't bodyslam an airborne shooter? Maybe you just inform him he can't do that again because an ejection might be too embarrassing for his fragile ego?
The only thing that jkjennings should have done differently was call management and have them eject this azzhole themselves. In no case should conduct like this, especially by a parent, be tolerated.

In Ohio, The OHSAA sent out a notification that Flash pictures are not allowed from the baseline in the key. EVerywhere else, is OK.

Originally Posted by Old School
I have forced fans to turn off cameras with the flash enabled or on. I look up and see that, beep, shut it off! Fans said nobody has ever made me turn it off before. I said if you don't turn it off, you or the camera or both is leaving this gym.
http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds2-4/red-apple.jpg
http://environnement.ecoles.free.fr/...e_MVC-241S.jpg

Nice use of visuals 26.

Is it just me, or has this thread become patently absurd?

I should clarify, I meant Camcorders. Cameras that take a flash and then go off or not a problem. But if you got a video camera or camcorder, and the strope or bright light is on. Turn it off. One tournament I was working, the tournament director, walked out on the floor, stopped our game, when up into the stands and took the camera. Escorted the parents out. Not allowed here! When I run into it. I look up and see that bright strope light on. Turn it off. Lot of the people tried to fight it, they where either escorted out the gym or they turn it off.

Technically there are two pancakes.

My 2 cents
 

I didn't read the entire thread but I'll put in my 2 cents.
1. Shining a laser pointer at a person (in some states) is aggravated harrassment or battery. FYI, shining laser at a police officer, etc. raises offense to felony status.
2. If it was my kid this jerk was shining laser light at I'd have a few words with him myself.
3. Many schools ban laser pointers except under control and supervision of teaching staff. This would include bringing one to game in that school.
4. Person who suggested that modern cameras take good pictures in gyms w/o flash is way off. Gym lighting is uniformly bad and stress the limits of even the best cameras. I take 1000s of basketball pics per season and would never use a flash. If the subject is close enough to be lit by a flash, (s)he is close enough to be blinded by it, and the converse is true...if the player is far enough away to not be affected by the flash, then why use it? Pros use intense down-firing strobe flashes on the ceiling of major arenas to get those beautiful magazine pics...

This is my point! As the official you need only report to the other fans in the gym that this fool is shining a laser and it is my belief that this will police itself. Especially with 6 year olds. I don't have to do anything else from an officials standpoint unless he does it again. This is why you stop the game and annouce it so that everyone knows and report this to home management at the same time.

I can't believe I am actually responding to OS.

You would rather turn the individual over to a mob than have escorted out of the gym?

Not a bad Idea, maybe the parent of the boy will deal with it. I can't believe that an adult would even stoop so low. How immature..

No OS, that's NOT what exactly I meant.

Perhaps this issue should be brought to the attention of ADs or Section office and added to announcement before games...."Use of profanity...laser pointers...will result in expulsion...".

Personally, I think Flogging would be a a better response.

This is funny....
 

I am trying to figure out if you guys are all messing with me or if you are really having these discussions with OS. He does say say some absurd stuff and his take on things sometimes bring a smile to my lips......

Wish I knew how to post the big box of popcorn , cause that's what I feel like eating right now....

http://www.sakida.com/bulk_popcorn.jpg

Here you go. :D

Peace

You Forgot:

http://www.bigoven.com/uploads/butter2.jpg

Geeze, Jeff, some people don't have the appetite you do. :D

http://img.factmonster.com/images/ipkapopcorn.jpg

I was leaving enough for everybody.

Peace

Basketball officials have a cool way of bonding and showing the love!!!:p

I had this happen in a kids game once too. He was about 60 years old and I found out later that he was a Doctor. Probably the single worst case of behavior I've ever seen simply because it was an adult and it was a premeditated act. He was sitting behind the goal shining it in the eyes of the free thrower. We caught him and kicked him out in a very non-OldSchool way. I should add that it was a light on the end of a key ring and not the stronger laser pointers but still pretty bad.

He was probably an opthomologist trying to drum up business. ;)

It was actually pretty funny watching as he left. The coaches had seen him doing it at about the same time I had and they got to him first. If stoning was still in fashion then this guy would have taken a few to the head. It was brutal and he deserved it.

Right, better punishment. Seems the message better than you kicking him out, don't you think?

Your thinking still shows signs of tetchedness. In my case when we kicked him out he was, in fact, turned over to a mob as well. But this way the mob was all out in the hallway and not in the gym. His wife was also none the happy with him. I'll also bet that if we had not kicked him out the mob would have been after us. Now keep in mind this was a kids game. In a school game I would have told management and had them remove him.