Coach yelling FOUL THEM

[Buckeye Ref]

I was talking with a fellow official the other night and he asked my opinion on a play and I wanted to get yours. What type of foul would you call if the coach is yelling to his players to foul the other team and they do? Would this be an intention foul or just a common foul?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Buckeye Ref
I was talking with a fellow official the other night and he asked my opinion on a play and I wanted to get yours. What type of foul would you call if the coach is yelling to his players to foul the other team and they do? Would this be an intention foul or just a common foul?

You let the action determine the foul. But you also do not give a lot of the benefit of the doubt either. And then when you do not call an intentional foul, you tell the coach to "cool it," on screaming "FOUL, FOUL."

That is just my opinion.

[Jeremy Hohn]

In my games, if I know a team is trying to foul, I go for the first incidental contact that would normally constitute a common foul to get them to the line. You need to know what the definitions of common and intentional according to the national federation rule book states. Just because a coach is crying "foul them" doesn't mean you have to call intentional if the foul appeared common. Use common sense officiating.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Common sense is the best advice anyone can offer here along with preventive officiating. When it gets close to the end of the game and they are purposly trying to get a foul be alert. Get on top of the action and call the first contact you see. If you let them play on, the next time they foul they'll make sure it counts. Players can really get hurt during situtations like this. As long as they are making an attempt to gain possesion of the ball I'm going will a common foul. Even if the coach told them to foul. If there's an off ball holding or push, something to that effect, I'm ringing up the intentional.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jeremy Hohn
In my games, if I know a team is trying to foul, I go for the first incidental contact that would normally constitute a common foul to get them to the line. You need to know what the definitions of common and intentional according to the national federation rule book states. Just because a coach is crying "foul them" doesn't mean you have to call intentional if the foul appeared common. Use common sense officiating.

I would agree that we need to officiate with common sense
but the fed *wants* us to call intentional when the coach
yells "FOUL THEM! FOUL THEM!"

[Mark Padgett]

I am in the same school at Rut in that you let the action determine the foul call. Simply put, follow the rule. If, in your opinion, the foul was committed solely to stop play, then it is intentional.

Now, having said that, I do not call it intentional if the player was going for the ball and the contact was not excessive regardless of the game situation and whether or not the coach was yelling.

I believe this is within both the letter and the intent of the rule.

Where you get some flak from coaches is when the direct their players to foul and the kid grabs a jersey and you call the foul intentional. Even worse is the case where the coach directs his kids to foul and one of his players comes up to an offensive player and just barely bumps or pushes him (an act that really is not enough contact for a common foul) and they expect you to call a common foul - their thinking is that if you don't call this "preventative foul", then the contact will just escalate. Of course, they don't want you to call it intentional, however.

I guess they want their cake and eat it too.

[Dave Brost]

Two years ago, when the point of emphasis was stressed regarding the intentional foul situation, we here in Wisconsin were told that if you hear the coach yelling to foul them, and they do, you give them the intention foul. At the same time, there must be some discretion used. It is very easy to explain that the player was instructed to foul the opponent, and therefore is the equivalent of being an intentional foul.
I think there would be some judgement involved, if you think the foul had no relation to the coach yelling.

[Jeremy Hohn]

Sorry Dan, not in my games..if that is what they want, maybe that is something that can be addressed in the pregame meeting with the coach when you have him/her sign the books. Maybe have them use a code word like "red" or something..

[RecRef]

Since two of the worst situations I have ever seen on a court took place in the last minute of close games, I make it a point to talk to the coaches before the game. “Coach, you are aware that of the federation rules on intentional fouls at the end of the game. If I hear Foul, Foul, I will call it intentional.”

The key to the situation is “hear.” The coach is telling his/her players to deliberately/intentionally brake the rule.”

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jeremy Hohn
Sorry Dan, not in my games..if that is what they want, maybe that is something that can be addressed in the pregame meeting with the coach when you have him/her sign the books. Maybe have them use a code word like "red" or something..

Sure, this is all great. But a couple of things:

- you said "You need to know what the definitions of common and intentional according to the national federation rule book states." My only point is the fed has been beating up
a lot of people about this specific case (coach yelling
"foul him!") and they insist this be called intentional.
You can ref with common sense or you can go by the letter
of the law, but ya can't do both!

- I would never presume to tell a coach how to coach his
team, or how I expect the game to go during a pregame.
Again, the fed has been sending this message down to the
coaches as well as us and if they don't get it, well, they
don't get it.

I will admit that during a game late last year a coach went
nuts that I called an intentional because he was literally
jumping up & down, yelling "foul him! foul him now!"
He wanted to know why I called the intentional, giving me
that "it's a part of the game, you can't do that, blah blah"
I told him that by now all the *good* coaches I know
have a codeword they use at the end of the game so they
don't foolishly get their team in trouble. That ended
that conversation.

[DrC.]

I agree with Jeremy. Players know of at least 20 plays for each kind of defense or out of bounds situation. We all hear the coach or PG call out Carolina, Duke, Red, Go hot. If they can do that, Can't they come up with a name for FOUL THEM !!!. I try to mention that casually to a coach when I first meet them. Then it's up to them.... Then it's like in baseball when someone does not slide into a base.
Unless the call is obvious, you bang them out (Ask Jason Giambi of the A's) !!!

[Mark Padgett]

Out here in Oregon, we have a fairly well-known and respected girls coach who has been using the code word "bananas" for years when he wants his girls to foul. Everyone knows what it means, and even younger grades use it because they think they're supposed to!

Does this mean that every time he yells "bananas" and one of his players fouls, we call it intentional. Of course not. In fact, as stated above, I let the action dictate the foul. If the player was making a legitimate effort to get the ball and the contact was not excessive, it's not an intentional foul in my book regardless of what the coach yells and/or the game situation. Why should we discourage defenders from going for the ball? What happens if the coach is yelling "foul, foul, foul", the defender runs up to the ball handler and cleanly swats the ball away? Are you going to call an "intentional almost-foul"?

[Jeremy Hohn]

Good point Dan, and I understand what you are saying. Here in Texas, we really haven't gone over that as a point of emphasis. I will bring that up at the next meeting tomorrow night. I sit on the board, so I will bring it up to the general membership. Thanks