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yankeesfan Thu Feb 01, 2007 09:42am
swinging an elbow
 
what are all of the possible violations or penalties that could be called for swinging an elbow? with contact and without.

kbilla Thu Feb 01, 2007 09:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan
what are all of the possible violations or penalties that could be called for swinging an elbow? with contact and without.
no contact you have a violation, not a foul...be careful with this though that it is the elbows that are swinging on their own and it is not just the result of a player rotating their whole upper body or pivoting...

with contact you could have anything from a common personal foul, player control foul, or if you view it as extremely vicious/intentional you could have all the way up to a flagrant foul with the player being tossed....never seen the last one happen, but it is always a possibility...

iref4him Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:15am
1) excessive swinging of elbows with or without the ball (using the shoulder region as a pivot point) - violation

2) swinging elbow and making contact (without the ball in their possession) - common personal foul

3) swinging elbow and making contact (with the ball in their possession) - player control foul. The player with the ball could make normal legal body movement with the elbows locked and make contact - player control foul.

4) then if a player deliberately throws an elbow and makes contact - intentional or flagrant personal foul (with the flagrant - disqualification)

5) if a player intentionally throws an elbow and misses - intentional or flagrant techinical foul (with the flagrant - disqualification). YOU may consider the act fighting.

kbilla Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iref4him
1) excessive swinging of elbows with or woithour the ball (using the shoulder region as a pivot point) - violation

2) swinging elbow and making contact (without the ball in their possession) - common personal foul

3) swinging elbow and making contact (with the ball in their possession) - player control foul. The player with the ball could make normal legal body movemebnt with the elbows locked and make contact - player control foul.

4) then if a palyer deliberately throws at elbow and makes contact - intentional or flagrant personal foul (with the flagrant - disqualification)

5) if a player intentionally throws an elbow and misses - intentional or flagrant techinical foul (with the flagrant - disqualification). YOU may consider the act fighting.
good point on 5), i didn't list that, but it is always true if you consider an act like that to be intentional there doesn't have to be contact to have an intentional/flagrant foul......use discretion!

SamIAm Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:21am
... and the technical fouls.

Oops, I see the technical fouls noted in 5) above.

Please disregard the text, but also note it is a perfect post (in bowling terms). :)

cshs81 Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:35am
What if the rebounder has the ball in the power position -hands on each side of the ball with elbows out - and rotates his shoulders and torso and makes contact? Automatically a foul or is it nothing if deemed part of his natural movement and unintentional?

iref4him Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cshs81
What if the rebounder has the ball in the power position -hands on each side of the ball with elbows out - and rotates his shoulders and torso and makes contact? Automatically a foul or is it nothing if deemed part of his natural movement and unintentional?
that is item 3). If he/she is moving like you say, then if there are any defenders around themm and contact occurs, you have to determine who intitated the contact. If the player with the ball, you have a player control foul. If the defenders did then, you have a common personal foul. You could have slight contact and no advantage/disadvantage taken, you have nothing.

kbilla Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iref4him
that is item 3). If he/she is moving like you say, then if there are any defenders around themm and contact occurs, you have to determine who intitated the contact. If the player with the ball, you have a player control foul. If the defenders did then, you have a common personal foul. You could have slight contact and no advantage/disadvantage taken, you have nothing.
correct, point being there is no foul for the act of swinging the elbow in this case, the foul is for the contact....would be the same thing if elbows were down and they ran the defender over making contact w/ the chest....

esslingerdav Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iref4him
1) excessive swinging of elbows with or woithour the ball (using the shoulder region as a pivot point) - violation

2) swinging elbow and making contact (without the ball in their possession) - common personal foul

3) swinging elbow and making contact (with the ball in their possession) - player control foul. The player with the ball could make normal legal body movemebnt with the elbows locked and make contact - player control foul.

4) then if a palyer deliberately throws at elbow and makes contact - intentional or flagrant personal foul (with the flagrant - disqualification)

5) if a player intentionally throws an elbow and misses - intentional or flagrant techinical foul (with the flagrant - disqualification). YOU may consider the act fighting.

Regarding #1 - how is that a violation - maybe I do not understand the term "violation" vs a common personal foul - If the player has possession - would you just give the ball to the other team w/o a foul called or if does not have possession what do you do?

JRutledge Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:50pm
It is a violation because the rules say it is. This used to be a Technical foul until the rules committee decided that making it a violation might increase the incidents of this being called. It is most common when a player has the ball, but if they do not have the ball, you give the ball to the offended team.

Peace

esslingerdav Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:21pm
o.k. forgive my ignorance - so.. if a player has the ball and swings elbows as described in #1 - no foul called and ball goes to other team?

Ref in PA Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:27pm
A violation is like throwing the ball oob. Ball goes to the other team.

A1 has ball and is swinging elbows. Tweet!. B's ball for throwing at nearest spot to violation.

TimTaylor Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by esslingerdav
o.k. forgive my ignorance - so.. if a player has the ball and swings elbows as described in #1 - no foul called and ball goes to other team?
As Jeff said, this is a violation by rule. Violations and fouls are not the same thing. Violations consist of things like traveling, illegal dribble, causing ball to go OOB, etc. The ball is given to opponent for inbound at the spot closest to where violation occurred.

JRutledge Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by esslingerdav
o.k. forgive my ignorance - so.. if a player has the ball and swings elbows as described in #1 - no foul called and ball goes to other team?
Yes.

Peace

kbilla Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by esslingerdav
o.k. forgive my ignorance - so.. if a player has the ball and swings elbows as described in #1 - no foul called and ball goes to other team?
correct. there is a signal for this on the nfhs signal chart...not a foul..


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