2 strange questions...
 

BV game;
during warm-ups, a player was wearing an Ipod....what is the ruling on this?

also, during the 3 quarter of a blowout (40 point rule/running clock in effect), the coach of the team that is winning gets up from his seat, walks down the sideline along the bench toward the baseline and continues to walk out of the gym (while the ball is in play). He doesn't coach, yell, attract attention to himself, he just walks out. Being a blowout, my partner and I went on with business as usual. About 5 minutes later, the coach came back and sat down. Any thoughts? A number of reasons crossed my mind (maybe he was sick, emergency phone call)...he didn't cause a scene or anything bizarre. thoughts?

wow those are two strange ones! coach is a fool for letting his kid wear an i-pod in warmups, but i am not aware of any rule that would prohibit this. kid could wear a mr. t. gold chain in warmups if he wants as long as he has it off come game time...

as far as the second one i guess technically you could call him out of the box, but under the circumstances the no call seems correct..maybe he just couldn't hold it for another minute, we've all been there! again, have never seen this specifically addressed anywhere though...

man this is a strange game sometimes...

i dont see anything wrong with either -- the rule says a player cannot leave the confines (i am not sure if it specifies unantended or not) -- but if the coach left he must have had a reason. hopefully there is an assistant there to take over responsibility for the team or the captain in his absence.

just make sure the ipod comes out before the game starts :)

1. Have the player immediately remove the illegal equipment. (3.5.B)
2. No violation or foul.

I would ask the kid to take the IPOD off during warmups. Just like we make the earrings come out during warmups. Just like we make the rubber bands come off the wrists in warm ups. Its just not appropriate.

I wouldn't do anything about the coach leaving either. I wouldn't stop a player from going to the locker room either. The consequences could be messy.

we cannot make anything come out during warmups -- we make suggestions and hope they comply -- they are NOT allowed to play with earrings -- there is nothing that prohibts them during warmups.

exactly...

it sounds like it is a question of whether or not it is illegal during warm ups; obviously they can't wear earrings and the like during the game, but (and i dont have my rulebook infront of me) unless it is clearly illegal during warm ups, i guess no harm no foul.

I'd tell him to remove the Ipod. I'd use rule 2-3.

Keep in mind that if during the warm ups anything happens to him, a fall, a trip anything and his gets his ears damaged and you knew he had the Ipod in, you can be held responsible.

The second one, Nothing, the man had to go to the BR.

Deecee and kbilla - see the Case Play I cited above. (A lesser HawkeyeCubP once mistakenly thought the same thing.) You're mistaken.

Are you serious? See case book play 3.5SitB. Been in there for years. If he wants to wear a Mr. T chain, he ain't gonna be doing it on the court during the officials' jurisdiction, if the officials know the rules.

The Ipod is a no-no too. Anything that is a possible danger to others isn't allowed.

Geeze, what next? A kid trying to make a lay-up in warmup while carrying a boombox?

how is the ipod a danger to others -- hes shooting layups and midrange jumpers.

Exactly <b>WRONG</b>.....

okay so no Ipod (and no technical for it) and coach leaving & coming back as described is okay; agreed?

If you ever do manage to find your elusive rule books, read 3-5-1 and 3.5SitA. As well as the one about jewelry in warmups, of course--3.5SitB.

Yes, by virtue of 3.5.B & C in the first situation, and by virtue of common sense in the second situation.

i'll look up those rules that you mentioned JR. thanks.
I was surprised his coach allowed that...they're like the 3rd ranked team in Phila, you'd think the coach wouldn't stand for that.
then again, he left during the game, so who knows..

thanks everyone!

Don't you mean 3.5 SIT B JR?
(We discussed this the other night in our association meeting);)

JR...what's your thoughts on making the players tuck in their shirts during warm-ups. I got into a semi-heated discussion with a fellow board member about this. I said we should leave it alone, during warm-ups. (Sometimes we can't even tell because of the untucked warm-up jackets)
He said we should enforce the shirts being tucked in, during warm-ups.

What if the coach was the only adult on the bench?

of course that was an exaggeration, but how would you even know what he had on under his warm-ups? honestly i have never noticed this if it is a rule, i don't have my book in front of me, anything illegal i have seen during warm-ups i have told them to take it off, but i have not checked as they do it, as long as it is done when the game starts i am fine with it....

Depends on the state rule. If it's in a state (such as California) that requires someone that meets their definition of "coach" to be present on the bench etc., etc., then he, techincally, needs to hold it until the end of the game.

Didn't we already have this discussion? Either here or over on the NFHS forum?

Iirc, after a long discussion, the consensus was that there was no consensus. It depended on how you interpreted the rules, and they could be interpreted differently. There were grey areas in the language. Also iirc, I was on the "who gives a sh!t during warm-up" side. Part of the argument also was if you're gonna enforce the shirt-tucked-in during warm-up, you also gotta enforce it during the whole game at all times. And that includes while a team member is sitting on the bench, waiting to sub in, walking off the court at half-time, etc. Personally, I somehow didn't think that was the purpose and intent of the rule. :)

But also iirc, BktBallRef said that NC had mandated that they enforce that rule during warm-ups.

Sorry that I really can't give you anything definitive, Dude.....

JR just curious as to the wording of the situation you quote as i don't have my books in front of me...b/c i am guessing it doesn't say "i-pod" anywhere in the nfhs materials yet....is this one where it is left up to judgement as to whether you are forcing him to take it off during warmups or is this cut & dry? i am not talking jewelry, i am talking about his ipod...and have they changed this in college? b/c i know a few years back sean may from UNC listened to his ipod regularly in warmups...and i am not aware of this being a difference between nfhs and ncaa...what i am saying is that if the rule says "anything that is a possible danger to others" means that you rule that an ipod is a danger to others, doesn't mean someone else does....now should he wear it, hell no, but i just want to clarify whether or not it is that cut & dry that he can't....nothing like starting something over nothign before the game even starts...

Actually, I have to retract what I said to JR about this particular Case play.

I thought we were talking about Mr. T's jewelry..3.5.SitB

JR has the closer Case play, 3.5 SitC ..."not needed to play the game and are not considered to be appropriate."....in regards to i-pods.

Fair enough, and yes I remember discussing this...just didn't remember the consensus (or lack thereof).

I like your thoughts on the players on the bench, etc....I think that re-enforces the "leave it alone" camp.

1) <b><u>Casebook Play 3.5SitB:</u></b>-- The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the team warm-up. One official notices that a member of team A is wearing a decorative necklace.
<b>RULING:</b> The official should inform the team member to remove the jewelry immdeiately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.

2) <b>Rule 3-5-1</b>-- "The referee shall not permit any team member to wear equipment or apparel which in his/her judgement is <b>dangerous</b> or confusing to other players or <b>is not appropriate</b>.
Excepts from case book play 3.5SitA--
- There are three criteria which determine the legality of of equipment. First, any equipment which, in the judgement of the referee, is dangerous to others".
- "Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and therefore is prohibited.
- "The third criterion provides that the equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing."

Note that these apply to high school games. What you see in an NCAA game should never be equated to high school rulings. There's just too many differences.

my point about "mr. t's jewelry" was a bad example, what i was getting at is that most of the time when it comes to that something like that, you are not going to have any idea what they have on under their warmups therefore why worry about it...and there is no "penalty" per se for him having it on, other than telling them to take it off if you see it...earrings sure you would see them, but again if you ask him to take it off and he doesn't do it right away what are you going to do? are you going to stay on him and follow him until he does or are you going to just watch to make sure that he does before the game starts? personally i would do the latter...the ipod is interesting, like i said i am curious as to how this is handled in college..."not considered to be appropriate", how's that for a cop-out...by whose standards? They should address this situation specifically given the popularity...and you better believe that if a coach is <fill in the blank> enough to let his kid wear one during warmups, he would argue like hell if you told the kid to take it off...not a reason on its own to allow him to wear one, but when it comes to confrontation before the game starts, I would generally like to avoid it unless forced to deal with a situation....

We were. I meant 3.5.SitB about jewelry and put it down wrong. I went back and changed it. I didn't pick up with your point originally re: 3.5SitC, but now that I read it, I agree with you completely that the last sentence is appropriate for the Ipod. Good catch, Dude.

You don't ask. You inform player that said items/equipment must be removed before player continues his/her on-court warm-ups.

ok you don't "ask" you "inform". same thing, do you follow him around and make sure he does it and make a mountain out of it before the game starts or do you not bother until game time? i guess all i am saying is i would ask him/tell him/whatever to do it and if he comes out to start the game he can go back to the bench if the jewelry is still on. anybody who wants to do the former is more than welcome, i am not saying i am right, but that is how i would handle it..i think if you try the babysitting approach you are setting yourself up for a loong night...i'd like to think that all kids would listen the first time, but we all know that's not reality...

i am still not convinced with the ipod thing given the verbiage in the book...."not deemed appropriate for basketball" is so open to interpretation...why not specifically ban personal music devices, that would end the question...

I understand what you're saying, but it's no different that informing a player or coach they are required by rule to do something during any other time we're on the court - which we have course to do about 5 to 50 times per game.

And I'd bet if you brought this up to your association board and/or state interpreter, the concensus would be that it falls under 3.5.B & C.

Agreed. And if said player still refuses, tell head coach his player is about to cost his team a T if he doesn't comply. This should take care of it.

I'm sure you are probably right...all I was trying to get across in response to the original post is that this item is not specifically addressed...I would agree with you if someone was asking my opinion, but I would rather see something like this addressed rather than leaving it open to interpretation...because you know what you get then "the last ref let me wear it!" Granted you might get that anyway even if it was the written rule, but still!

Sorry HCP got my response caught up in your post!

Every cuss word is not specifically addressed not are every phrase that could be considered taunting or baiting. Use common sense. An Ipod presents many more potential problems than an item of jewelry.

Kbilla, read case play 3.5SitA. It <b>deliberately</b> says <i>"It will be noted that the listing of equipment which is always illegal is not inclusive. It cannot identify every item which is not permitted. The generalization is required since the referee's judgement is necessary."</i> There isn't anything in the rules about carrying an AK47 onto the court during warmups either. That's why they give you the criteria to follow in that case play-i.e.some of the criteria that I listed already.

Personally, I think that you should learn the rules and how to apply them. It's kinda obvious that you don't know what the applicable rules are or how they should be applied.

The FED has laid out in detail <b>exactly</b> how they want these situations handled. There is <b>NO</b> guesswork or judgement involved. You do <b>NOT</b> ask</b> a player to take off jewelry. You <b>tell</b> them that they <b>have</b> to leave the court <b>immediately</b> until they <b>do</b> take off the jewelry. If they choose to wear jewelry, that is their right. But they have to do so on the bench, not on the court. If the player wants to argue or doesn't want to leave, that's when you can get into technical fouls if needed. Usually a word to the coach is all that it takes. I have never seen or heard of a player refusing to leave the court when asked to get rid of his jewelry.

actually if i see an Ak47 make its way on the court I am NOT informing anyone -- I am getting my butt out of there -- would you give the coach a T here?

Sure we can. Rule 3.5.6: Jewelry shall not be worn.

It then goes on to discuss why medical tags are not jewelry. It also says in 3.5 that The referee shall not permit any team member to wear equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgement is dangerous or confusing to other players or is not appropriate.

It says nothing about during the game or warm-up. I promise you that in warm-ups I make them take jewelry off, rubber bands off, any hard hair clips out, fix any braces that have a problem, etc. If they have an Ipod with them - that's leaving too. In my judgement - those items present a dangerous situation to team mates and the Ipod is innappriate.

I guess I would give a T - unless it's OJ Mayo.:D

I also had a BV player attempt to wear an ipod and a stocking cap during warmups earlier this season. I simply stopped him in the layup line and told him that he needed to go to the bench and remove those items right away.
There was no fuss at all. He simply did as necessary.
He was a nice kid and the team captain. He simply didn't know that he couldn't have that stuff on during warmups.

For rules support see the previous posts by JR and RD. :D

Let's suppose he gets clocked in the head with a ball because he could not hear his teammate yell "Look out!"and his parents decide to sue you because you saw it and did not have it removed. Strange, I know, but look at the warning labels on hair dryers. Think someone using one in the tub won't sue if they survive?

Yep, and they also do defensive drills and drills where there can be close contact - certainly could be dangerous. If all they are doing is shooting layups and midrange jumpers - I question the coach having an effective warmup for his team.

wheres nevada and his 3rd world play book...

i had a team who had a very large rooster as one of its players -- it was number 10 and quick as heck on the crossover...one problem it got 2 quick T's for excessive clucking...what would you do in this situation?

This is too easy...I'd give him the http://www.geocities.com/mnlerner200...sign_trans.gif:D :D :D :p

most likely not
 

I have on more than one occasion, either told a kid to take something off, and the coach usually says "thank you, I told him, but he wouldn't listen to me." Or on other occasions mentioned something to a coach, and heard "will you tell him, he won't listen to me" So I am not thinking that a coach is going to be concerned if we enforce these rules...now the rules where fouls are called on both teams, the other team and the coaches team, now those rules are always open for debate LOL

personally i think anyone who comes on a message board and says something like that thinks a little too highly of themselves. i understand the rule. if you are saying there is no judgement to be used in this case i say you are mistaken, but i won't say you "need to read the rules" because i am here for discussion not to pass judgement on others...and i have worked with some high level HS officials who have handled this situation the same way...do what you want, but take the self importance somewhere else...

and mr. jurassic referree God sir, an AK47 would fall under the "could cause harm to others" provision....i know you have probably witnessed someone strangle another with their i-pod ear buds, but we haven't all seen it all like you have..

Sorry kbilla,

I gotta agree with the old dinosaur here. When I come on the floor for pregame warmups, my authority to manage the game is without question. I would no more expect a player to refuse to take off something that I deem illegal than I would expect that same player to ignore me when I call him for his fifth foul and tell him he's done for the night. I will respectfully, and as nicely as possible, tell him to "get off the frickin floor until he's appropriately dressed." OK.

I wouldn't say it like that.:D But my expectations are the same.

and just because you have irritated me let's talk a bit about judgement. it clearly states in the rule book that a player may not stay in the lane on offense for more than 3 seconds consecutively with the provision for a player who goes to attempt a shot. what do you do if you have a player with his/her toe on the lane line, are you counting? it is clearly stated in the rulebook that you should, so why wouldn't you? what about a player who has their toe on the free-throw lane marking during the free-throw, are you blowing a violation? there are a ton of things that are "clearly" stated in the rulebook as to how they should be handled, and most of those things have a hell of a lot more to do with the game than what a kid was or wasn't wearing in warmups, so if you want to be the rulebook nazi and chase a kid through the lay-up line to make sure that he has taken off the necklace that he has on under his warmup before the game has started, more power to you....but again, i would never tell an official to "read the rule book", especially one on a message board who i have no idea about what they have/haven't done...

look guys this is silly, i never should have even said anything, this converstaion is a non-starter. i agree with what you are saying and if you want to do that, more power to you, i have no problem with that. but that being said, if my partner told a kid to take something off and then went back about his business of watching pre-game warmups and didn't say another word to the kid if he didn't do it right away, i wouldn't think any differently of him. i certainly wouldn't tell him he needs to read the rule book b/c that player should have taken that off right away! there are more important things...

If my partner is someone I've never worked with before, it might indeed make me wonder. Is this the kind of official that will warn a coach three or four times about violating the coaches box? Is this guy going to keep warning the same player to keep the arm bar down? Is this guy going to keep telling players to get out of the lane and never call 3 seconds?

Nope, I said what I said because I don't really think very highly of your rules knowledge. What you posted was completely contadictory to some very basic written NFHS rules. And what you should do with players wearing jewelry during warmups <b>is</b> a basic rule. When anyone posts arguing that you shouldn't follow a very definitive case play, you have to wonder about their rules knowledge. And contrary to your statement above, there is absolutely <b>NO</b> judgement involved either in how to handle a player wearing jewelry during warmups. They <b>immediately</b> remove the jewelry or they <b>immediately</b> go sit on the bench.

If your fellow high level HS officials are following your lead, then your fellow high level HS officials don't know the rules either.

If you don't know the rules, then you do need to read the rules and learn them. It's that simple, and it's got nothing to do with "self importance".

good points, i see where you are going....like i said though i have guys who are veteran officials who i have worked with on a regular basis with who would not even think twice about this...my whole point in even bringing this up in the first place was to emphasize that if you do tell them once and then walk away they don't know whether you are still watching them disobey you or whether you told them and that was it you walked away and just expected that they would do as they are told. to me there is a benefit to treating players like "adults" when they reach the varsity level and not dictating to them in situations like this. now i understand that there are going to be a million other times during the game where i will dictate and there will not be a question, but to me it is a matter of picking your battles...and i don't buy the whole "if you give them an inch they'll take a mile" argument in this case...i am not out to start an adversarial relationship with a player before the game starts unless i am forced to....different school of thought that's all....

Why do you let them sit on the bench if they have on jewelry? Aren't they still considered players.... and players aren't permitted to wear jewelry...you better get them sent to the locker room until it's removed.

No, they aren't considered players.

I'm not looking for an adversarial relationship either. But the relationship I do have with the players is one of judicial authority. I tell them something. I expect it to be done. I tell my 11 year old son to clean his room, he's going to clean his room. Its not an adversarial relationship. He does what I tell him to do because I expect him to do just that. Well, the same goes for the players. Its not adversarial. Its just that I have an expectation that they will do what I tell them to do. If I get lip, I already have some information about that team.;)

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Nope, I said what I said because I don't really think very highly of your rules knowledge.

ha ha, now if THAT is not self-importance then i haven't seen it! do i know you? do i care what you think of my rules knowledge? look, all i was attempting to do is bring attention to the fact that if you chase down every little insignificant rule technicality, then you are looking for trouble. that's it. you made this into some kind of judgement on me for some reason...nobody told me that you were the technical review police when i signed up....

but they are players during warmups?

You just don't get it, do you? And sadly, it appears that your veteran officials don't get it either.

Where do you officiate, kbilla? Just wondering. I've never heard of any officials group up to now that doesn't enforce jewelry rules by the book in warmups.

They're team members. See case book play 3.5SitB. They can't become players.

Are they players during warmups? :confused:

They are bench personnel. Thats why, if they get whacked for dunking, its an indirect on the coach.

OK...but doesn't Rule 3 Section 5 deal with Team Members equipment and apparel? The are team members while on the bench and team members cannot wear jewelry...either they take it off or they're in the locker room. In my opinion if you enforce it on the floor you need to enforce it on the bench as well.

First of all if you are working HS varsity sports, the players are not adults. I have a fundamental problem with these kinds of statements. These are still kids and in most cases are not legally old enough to do much of anything in our society. If you cannot tell a kid to apply to the rule, then I wonder if you have kids do you have problem telling your kids what to do? It is not hard to get a kid to comply or they will not play. If I do not get the kid to comply, I tell their coach and no matter how much hemming and hawing, they comply.

Peace

i guess i don't "get it" in your world....why does it matter, you coming to my association meetings to tell on me?

you know what's funny, i have NEVER had a problem with this in pre-game. i have told kids to take stuff off and i don't worry about it..i cannot remember the last time i had had a kid come into a game with jewelry on. because you are right, it is not hard to get a kid to comply....

and this is a matter of opinion. that's fine if you don't think so, but it's a different school of thought....what if the kid is 18, is he an "adult" then? how i treat players might differ from how you treat players, but what i do has worked for me, i very seldom have problems with players or coaches for that matter....do what works for you...

Of course it is an opinion. But I was raised by parents that required me to treat adults with respect. I do not care how others do things, but when you deal with me and you are not an adult, I require a certain amount of respect. This is why I do not introduce myself to them as "Jeff." I am not their equal as it relates to age and respect and responsibility. And especially if I am in an authority position over a child, because if something happens to them, guess who they are going to blame? Maybe if there was a general respect for people older than we are, maybe this society would be a better place. Then again, I do not care what others do, I demand respect from children as I would expect any teacher or other adult that deals with kids would require.

Peace

Why would I tell on you?:confused: You've been saying that your experienced high-level high school officials are doing exactly what you do anyway. If no one in your association is enforcing the rule the way it is written, what use would it be to even bring it up?

I could care less how you and everyone in your association calls it. I just want to make sure that other officials reading this thread know that you and your association <b>are</b> calling it wrong, by rule.

This is from the <b>COMMENTS ON THE 2001-02 RULES REVISIONS</b> when they implemented the rule:
<i>"The referee shall not permit any 'team member' to wear equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgement is dangerous or confusing to other players or is not appropriate. Of specific concern is the wearing of jewelry during the pre-game warm-up period. Once the officials arrive on the floor and have jurisdiction, even prior to the time the head coach verifies that all players are legally equipped, no team member may have jewelry. Currently there remains no additional penalty other than <b>not being permitted to participate</b>".</i>

Iow you can sit but you can't play.

I guess this works for me.... thanks.