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-   -   SEC may discipline referee - Ala.-Ga. game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31196-sec-may-discipline-referee-ala-ga-game.html)

Scrapper1 Thu Jan 25, 2007 01:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33
you let the whole nation know he screwed up, then EVERY game, and i mean EVERY game, coaches and players are going to question his calls, and be continually on his @$$ because of it. It would essentially be forcing this guy to quit officiating.
While it may be true that coaches may be more willing to question his calls, a missed shot clock call is not going to force Mr. Lopes to quit officiating. JMO.

deecee Thu Jan 25, 2007 01:55pm
i agree -- how can you punish someone who has a split second to make a JUDGEMENT call -- and calls nonetheless that need to be reviewed in super slow mo and still will have some peoplw arguing both sides.

another case of a coach not willing to accept reality -- humas will make errors -- the less time we have to take in information and reasonably evaluate it the more chance for error -- in our industry our chance for error is very high as everything is done split second with lots of information coming in. We all know that the shot clock violation sometimes can be the MOST difficult to call depending on angles and action on the court. How can we SEE a GRAZE. very tough to be reprimanded for close call/non calls based on judgement.

tomegun Thu Jan 25, 2007 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33
He!! yea it is... anything like that should be in-house, and nobody, and i mean NOBODY should know about it other than the reprimanded official and the person/board deciding his punishment. It goes back to the thread where we were talking about throwing fellow officials underneath the bus. You don't do it, no matter what. If you do, and you let the whole nation know he screwed up, then EVERY game, and i mean EVERY game, coaches and players are going to question his calls, and be continually on his @$$ because of it. It would essentially be forcing this guy to quit officiating.
We are not talking about high school basketball, there is a lot of money involved and as far as I know there is no such thing as a board to decide this.
It is sort of naive to think this will ruin someone's career. It just doesn't happen that way so you should let that one go.

johnnyrao Thu Jan 25, 2007 02:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
As far as the game itself goes, I didn't see it, but according to the ESPN article, the big controversial call was a shot clock violation that Lopes called with 17 seconds left in the game. The ball hit the rim, but it was so close that they had to go to the monitor to confirm. The AP procedure gave the ball back to Alabama and they won at the buzzer (on what may or may not have been a travel before the game winning shot). I may have a problem w/ the SEC disciplining an official for something that they had to go to the monitor to confirm, or what may or may not have been a travel that can only be confirmed by the SEC reviewing a DVD or videotape in super-slow motion 5 days after the game because a coach b!tched. Just my .02. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=270200333
I did see the game so I have to throw this out for clarification. I do not know NCAA rules, and most times I work HS games I am told I don't know NFHS rules either, but that's another story. What I saw happen was the shot was taken and, as reported, there was a question as to whether the ball hit the rim or not. From the angles of the replays on the TV broadcast (which may be different from what the officials see) I could not tell. Anyway, what happened after the shot is that a GEORGIA player grabbed for the rebound, bobbled the ball, and it went OOB. So, I am confused as to why ESPN reported that it was a alternating possession situation. Isn't a shot clock violation a turn over to the other team? If so, then it would be an Alabama ball. If they did not call the shot clock violation and judged that the ball hit the rim, then it would have been clearly OOB on Georgia and, thus, an Alabama ball. In either case I think AL would have retained the ball and still won the game. Am I missing something here? Also, Georgia blew a prety big lead in the game and, IMO, it shoudl never have come down to that last 20 seconds or so.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 25, 2007 02:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
Anyway, what happened after the shot is that a GEORGIA player grabbed for the rebound, bobbled the ball, and it went OOB. So, I am confused as to why ESPN reported that it was a alternating possession situation. Isn't a shot clock violation a turn over to the other team? If so, then it would be an Alabama ball. If they did not call the shot clock violation and judged that the ball hit the rim, then it would have been clearly OOB on Georgia and, thus, an Alabama ball. In either case I think AL would have retained the ball and still won the game. Am I missing something here?
Sure are. You're missing the fact that Lopes blew his whistle <b>before</b> the Georgia player got the rebound. He blew it while the missed shot was still in the air iow. It was an inadvertant whistle. You go to the POI in that situation, and the POI on an inadvertant whistle on a loose ball with no possession is an AP.

tomegun Thu Jan 25, 2007 02:56pm
Blowing a lead means nothing in this case. I'm not making any judgement because I didn't see the game, but you can't throw out the rules because a team blows a lead.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by biz

That being said...If he screwed by misapplying a rule that is a major no no and I would have no problem with a simple statement from the SEC saying that he misapplied rule x.x.x and he <font color = red>and his crew</font> will receive a (x) game suspension.
Why should the crew get penalized if the wrong decision on the play was Lopes' alone? It was his decision <b>only</b> on the replay, being the R.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by biz
We're talking about a guy, Tom Lopes, who has been one of the best in the business for many years. He's worked multiple Final Fours and is one of that small, elite group who you tend to see working the big games. His record speaks for itself.

That being said...If he screwed by misapplying a rule that is a major no no and I would have no problem with a simple statement from the SEC saying that he misapplied rule x.x.x and he and his crew will receive a (x) game suspension. But in seems in this case we're talking about judgement calls that need to be made at a split second. Obviously if an official misses too many of these type calls he/she will lose assignments to officials who can make the calls, but these mistakes should not be publicized.
I'm no expert on the NCAA rules either, but I have been looking at the monitor guidelines quite a bit recently. It may be that Lopes did, in fact, get a rule wrong, not just a judgment call. It seems that in the situation described it was incorrect to consult the monitor since the game clock was not showing 0.00, but rather still had 17 seconds on it.

Here is the NCAA rule that I am basing my statement upon:
2-5-2b
"Ascertain, with the reading of 0.00 on the game clock, whether a
shot-clock violation occurred at or near the expiration of time in any
period;"

sj Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:22pm
On another matter I'm having trouble getting my little mind around the idea that an official of his caliber, or just about any official for that matter, can make 23 bad calls in one game. The coach is bound to lose credibility when about 21 or probably 22 of these alleged bad calls were actually correct.

tomegun Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sj
On another matter I'm having trouble getting my little mind around the idea that an official of his caliber, or just about any official for that matter, can make 23 bad calls in one game. The coach is bound to lose credibility when about 21 or probably 22 of these alleged bad calls were actually correct.
It can happen and did happen in a final four game a few years ago. Nobody made a public stink about it, but I was in a session where the film was broke down.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 25, 2007 03:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sj
On another matter I'm having trouble getting my little mind around the idea that an official of his caliber, or just about any official for that matter, can make 23 bad calls in one game. The coach is bound to lose credibility when about 21 or probably 22 of these alleged bad calls were actually correct.
Bear in mind that there is a difference between a "bad" call and a "missed" call and a "judgmental no call", but sometimes coaches don't know the difference.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 25, 2007 05:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
It can happen and did happen in a final four game a few years ago. Nobody made a public stink about it, but I was in a session where the film was broke down.
Was this the Duke/UConn men's game?

voiceoflg Thu Jan 25, 2007 06:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33
He!! yea it is... anything like that should be in-house, and nobody, and i mean NOBODY should know about it other than the reprimanded official and the person/board deciding his punishment. It goes back to the thread where we were talking about throwing fellow officials underneath the bus. You don't do it, no matter what. If you do, and you let the whole nation know he screwed up, then EVERY game, and i mean EVERY game, coaches and players are going to question his calls, and be continually on his @$$ because of it. It would essentially be forcing this guy to quit officiating.
It doesn't matter if the media knows and tells the punishment or not. Coaches are going to scrutinize Mr. Lopes more closely anyway. IMO, an official should be suspended for making a mistake that costs a game only when a coach is suspended for making a mistake that costs a game.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 25, 2007 07:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
Let me ask a difficult question.

In front of you is the media - Sportscenter, the internet, etc.
To the left of you is college conferences where the coaches make big money and their jobs depend on winning games.
To the right of you is a part time official who makes between 1-2 thousand a game and is an independant contractor.
Behind you is your family that depends on you to bring home the bacon.

So they guy/gal on your right makes a mistake, which they should not make, and the people in front of you advertise it. The guy/gal on your left is talking directly to your boss because they just got hosed and their job could be in jeopardy. You have your family behind you who depends on you to keep the electricity on. When the hammer falls, which it must because the guy/gal on the right is obviously wrong, do you tell the people in front of you and the guy/gal on the left of you? Or do you say it will be kept in house, but the guys in front of you show highlights of the guy on the right of you officiating games like nothing has happened and the guy/gal on the left of you sees it to? You must also keep in mind, this is a million (at least) dollar business.

I think it is a slippery slope and obviously many D1 conferences (in multiple sports), the NFL and the NBA do not mind coming out and saying what the punishment will be. When a coach gets fired, when a player gets a technical in a game or when a university scandal occurs, it is all right there in the open. Is it so wrong to be open about the punishment handed down to an official?

Just playing devil's advocate.
You make an excellent point. What's wrong with being held accountable and others (the public) knowing that?

Back In The Saddle Thu Jan 25, 2007 08:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
You make an excellent point. What's wrong with being held accountable and others (the public) knowing that?
In some ways that's frightening new territory. Would it become a slippery slope going from simple public disclosure of previously private discipline to where eventually an official could be publicly sanctioned by more than just his supervisor? Once publicly disclosed discipline, so-called transparency or accountability becomes the norm, more people are going to want in on the act. Will lust for this new form of public execution grow? Will every sports broadcast include whiney-assed, grossly uninformed color commentators calling for discipline of officials for perceived mistakes? When such public pressure inevitably appears, how long until conferences begin to bow to such pressure?

Basketball referees are not elected officials, they are not executives of publicly traded companies. They are simply contractors doing a job. Yes, that job is very visible and connected with very emotionally charged events that have become inextricably tied to a boatload of money. But I see nothing that makes me believe that how a conference deals with officials should be made public. It is little more than bloodlust on the part of coaches, schools, media outlets, and fans that is driving this.


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