IS THIS GAME OVER???

bigwhistle

An interesting senerio was presented during a recent discussion of the new NF rule changes, specifically the one dealing with the jurisdiction of the officials ending after all have left the confines of the court.

Sitch......Scoreboard reads 57-56. Running total in the book indicates 56-56. The horn sounds for the end of the 4th period and all officials hurry off the floor and into the dressing room.

Can the officials be brought back onto the floor and play an overtime, or does their leaving the confines of the playing floor constitute the end of the game, even though it is a tie score by the official scorebook?

Please do not answer about the poor game management and that you would never allow this to happen. What are the ways, if any, to legally remedy this situation?

JRutledge

this game is over. Both officials have left the game, the game is over. I cannot see any reason this game can continue. You only know that there is a problem unless you are told or you can find out before. The rule seems clear to me.

Peace

Peter Devana

Rut is correct. The NCAA put out a memo last year directing that all officials check with the scorer before leaving the floor-especially in close games to avoid this problem. Good idea in this type of game to check the score every once in a while during Time-outs ,Fouls etc especially near the end of reg time.
Pistol

bigwhistle

I agree that the letter of the law says the game is over....BUT... can the final score be a tie?

Rule 5-7-1..If the score is tied at the end of the 4th quarter, play shall continue...........The score on the scoreboard means nothing. We all know that the running score is the official score.

Is this rule superseded by the 2-2-4 rule? Is the final score a tie?

ChuckElias

This is a great question, and one that I've never even thought of. The game can't be over if the official score is tied, can it? But if it's not, then that means you have to get the officials to come back for OT. Can you imagine being those guys? How humiliating. That could be a career-breaker, especially for a high level officiating team. I wouldn't want to have to face that situation.

[Insert usual "game management/it would never happen in my game/officials blew it" comments here.]

Chuck

Dan_ref

Good question. I can't imagine the scorebook saying 56-56
and the scoreboard saying 57-56 without *someone* saying
something about it, so how about this: Scorebook and scoreboard both says 57-56, referee verifies score is
correct at the final horn. As the officials are leaving
visual confines the scorekeeper detects an error in the
book, making score 56-56. As the officials enter the
locker room, someone from game management comes and tells
them the news. What happens next?

Paul LeBoutillier

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Scorebook and scoreboard both says 57-56, referee verifies score is
correct at the final horn. As the officials are leaving
visual confines the scorekeeper detects an error in the
book, making score 56-56. As the officials enter the
locker room, someone from game management comes and tells
them the news. What happens next?

By strict adherence to the rules what happens next is the officials shower and go home, but it would be a tragedy. Anyone know of a sitation where this has actually happened?

Paul

Dan_ref

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Scorebook and scoreboard both says 57-56, referee verifies score is
correct at the final horn. As the officials are leaving
visual confines the scorekeeper detects an error in the
book, making score 56-56. As the officials enter the
locker room, someone from game management comes and tells
them the news. What happens next?

By strict adherence to the rules what happens next is the officials shower and go home, but it would be a tragedy. Anyone know of a sitation where this has actually happened?

Paul

Actually I was thinking of something that happened last year
(or the year before) where the officials left the floor,
then came back and looked at an unofficial replay, then
got the players out again, or something like that. It took
them about 15 or 20 minutes to decide whether the game was
over or not. I think it was about a last second shot,
not a scorebook error, but this thread somehow reminded
me of that. Anyone else remember this?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lts look at this play in a calm, logical, and rational manner.

1) The progressive team totals (that is running score in the official book) is the official score. (NFHS R2-S11-A5)

2) The Referee approves the score at the end of each half. (NFHS R2-S5-A7)

3) The jurisdiction of the officials and the final score approved when all officials leave the visuals confines of the playing area. (NFHS R2-S2-A4)

Ladies and gentlemen, this game is going into overtime, because the game had been such a grueling up and down hard fought game, the officials needed a few minutes in their dressing room to refresh themselves before going back onto the court for the overtime period.

Danvrapp

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Ladies and gentlemen, this game is going into overtime, because the game had been such a grueling up and down hard fought game, the officials needed a few minutes in their dressing room to refresh themselves before going back onto the court for the overtime period.

Hmmm....interesting 'excuse' for the officials to try. Mark, I think you have a good point. However, do you think there's validity in saying the officials 'unofficially' verified the official score by using the scoreboard (thinking--and thereby saying--that this is the correct score) and declaring the game over by walking off the floor?

One way or another, we've got a mess on our hands, and an assigner on the phone 😮 !

Tim Roden

Rookies. This is why it is important to make sure all your games are blowouts.:-)

Mark Padgett

What is this "overtime" you guys keep talking about? I am not familiar with the term.

Actually, when we get down to the last few minutes of a close game, I tell my partner that if the game goes into overtime, "It's your fault."

Oz Referee

Surely the referees have to check/sign the scoresheet before leaving the court? That is certainly the FIBA system - therfor an error like this could never occur.

Tim Roden

Sorry, In American NF and NCAA basketball. The game is considered official when all officials have left the visual confines of the court. No signature necessary. Actually we sign the book before the game. The correct procedure is sometime during the stretch, A timeout or dead ball is used to check to make sure the scorebook and scoreboard is correct. Then when the horn sounds, we "exit, stage right" immediately. If I have to cross the court to leave, I will glance at the table to see if there is a chance of them bringing us back for any reason. Then I get out of Dodge fast.

walter

Sad to say...I was actually involved in a similar situation. Season before last working a semi-final of a Christmas Tournament. Three man crew. I was U1. Very veteran, very, very good official was R and new varsity official was U2. Three books and timer at the table (home team, visiting team, and tournament official book and tournament timer). After a timeout at approx. 2:30 left in fourth quarter in a tight see-saw game, R checks the books and all three have same totals for timeouts, points, fouls and possession info. Time expires in the fourth quarter with score on the board A-68, B-66. We leave the floor and are in the dressing room when the tournament director comes in and says there's a problem. He says it seems that both team books have score 66-66 while tournament book has score 68-66 for team A. He has all three books with him and says that the teams are still on the floor. The R decides to check the scoring in the fourth quarter because at the time out in the fourth quarter he had asked all scorers if they matched and all said yes. We could also see that the books matched at half and at the end of the third. As we're checking we see a spot where the tournament scorer recorded a two point goal in the running score while none of the others had anything. The rest of the running score matched in all books. To be safe we then checked each individual players scoring in the fourth quarter and everything in all three books matched. We then added the goals and free throws for each team for the game and they all matched and added up to 66-66 in all three books. R states that he wants us to go back out as a crew and talk to the timer and tournament scorer. We put whatever gear we had off back on and walked back out on the floor. The scorer tells us she thought she missed a basket in the fourth quarter and marked it in her book and told the timer to put the goal on the board. Remarkably no one noticed this as the action was pretty much non-stop. The timer confirms being told about a "missed" score in the fourth quarter. The R then calls both coaches together along with the tournament director and explains the situation (i.e. error with the official book and we're going to play overtime). Team A coach disagrees and we have to go through the process of explaining how we determined a mistake had been made. He then brings up the fact that we left the floor, the game is over. At that point the tournament director told him that overtime would be played. After conferring with his own scorer that a tie existed, he relented and after a long and embarrassing delay we played on. Team A went on to win by 6 in OT. Afterwards we were asking if there was ever a time we could have checked out the books again. The answer was no unless we did it during foul shots down the stretch because after that time out with about 2:30 left to play there was never another timeout taken. Our assignor and the ADs and the tournament staff thanked us for doing "the right thing" but it sure was embarrassing. We never once really considered calling the game and saying there was nothing we could do by rule. That certainly didn't seem right especially once we confirmed there was a mistake. We weren't redlined from the tournament so someone must have approved of our actions.

Danvrapp

...and I'd have to agree with Tim. Usually--and especially in a heated game--there's no way I'm gettin' within ear/eye shot of the table, let alone the coach(es). Check the book before the game's over, and steal a quick glance when the horn goes off to ensure validity. Then I'm outta there!

APHP

I don't think the game is over. The rule(s) obviously states the scorebook of the home team shall be the official book/score. So if the home book has a tied score, the game goes into overtime. The fact that the officials left the floor seems irrevelent to me. What if the scorebook and the score borad had a tie score and the officials left the floor. Would the game be over, I think not. Also, who/where does it state that the score board is the official score-it does state that the home book is the official score. I am thinking that the officials approved a tied game when they left the floor. I am not aware of anyting/anywhere that says anything about the score board being the official score. What if the home team used a card system to keep the score posted-and not an electronic scoring. Does the "cards" become the official score.

BktBallRef

Bobby, I don't think anyone is arguing that the scoreboard is the official score. It's more a discussion of "Can the officials return to the floor since the final score was approved when they left the confines?". We all understand that the home book is the official score.

The NF has struggled with the wording on the jurisdiction rule for three years now. It appears that there needs to be something to the effect that someone needs to be ahead when the final score is approved. 🙂

JRutledge

Originally posted by APHP
I don't think the game is over. The rule(s) obviously states the scorebook of the home team shall be the official book/score. So if the home book has a tied score, the game goes into overtime. The fact that the officials left the floor seems irrevelent to me. What if the scorebook and the score borad had a tie score and the officials left the floor. Would the game be over, I think not. Also, who/where does it state that the score board is the official score-it does state that the home book is the official score. I am thinking that the officials approved a tied game when they left the floor. I am not aware of anyting/anywhere that says anything about the score board being the official score. What if the home team used a card system to keep the score posted-and not an electronic scoring. Does the "cards" become the official score.

In NF, the score is approved when the all officials leave the vicinity of the court. So if everyone is going by the scoreboard and everyone is reacting to the scoreboard, that has to be the score. The home book and the scoreboard better be the same or there is going to be a problem. That is why any scoreboard problem has to be addressed immediately if noticed. But officials should make an effort in between quarters and during certain timeouts to make sure everything is a go. Usually if you are paying attention to who scored and when, you can avoid these problems. You should always be looking at the scoreboard from time to time, especially if there is a problem should be address at that moment. Good officials (and good officials make mistakes) should be watching and monotoring what they put up there. If not, you will have further problems down the line.

Peace

BktBallRef

Originally posted by JRutledge

In NF, the score is approved when the all officials leave the vicinity of the court. So if everyone is going by the scoreboard and everyone is reacting to the scoreboard, that has to be the score.

Say what? Care to provide a rule that staes that the scoreboard is the official score, Rut?