Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket
 

High school girl's game, with 30 sec. shot clock in play.

A1 fouls B1 while in the shooting motion and prohibits the ball from immediately leaving the shooter's hand. The 30 sec. shot clock sounds while the ball is still in B1's hand, but then the ball is shot and goes in. What is the result?

Well, the shot obviously cannot count if it wasn't released before the shot clock horn. Penalize the foul and shoot 2 FTs.

Anyone who would even consider a held ball here is a complete and utter moron! :rolleyes:

From last night's meeting?

foul occured before the horn sounds -- shooting foul -- horn sounds then ball released and goes in -- no score of the basket. 2 shot foul

where do you get a held ball scrapper?

So, are we going to ignore the foul?

No, we have a shooting foul with two free throws awarded. The basket doesn't count as it was after the shot clock horn.
You could only have a held ball in this sitch if B1 was an airborne shooter, which is not specified in the OP. If he is on the floor, it's not a held ball, and that is assuming there was no foul also.

Aaauurrrgghhhh!! I missed the foul. I thought the question was about the shot clock. My bad!! Definitely penalize the shooting foul. No held ball. No basket. 2 shots for the kid that was fouled.

The lesson, as always: I'm an idiot.

Well, we certainly don't expect you Texas Ranger's fans to be perfect.

Or smart.

You are stoopid beyond your years.

Just asking...
 

Do the same rules apply to stopping the shot clock as would stopping the game clock. In other words if the whistle blows and we see 1 second on the shot clock could we say we have definite knowledge that the shot clock should have stopped?

You've got a mean streak in ya.

I like that in an official.

If the whistle is for a foul you get a new clock anyways. If not I would say having definite knowledge about elapsed time can be replaced.

Yes, but what if the sequence is foul, horn, release, ball goes in. Since the foul came before the horn, the horn never should've sounded. So do you count the basket or not?

That's way Jurassic said he had a mean streak. :D

damn thats a good one -- if he wasnt fouled it would have been a clear SC violation -- but in this stich i would not know how or where to cite.

It's a live ball that becomes dead on the SC violation, it's pretty difficult to invision enough hangtime by the shooter to have an obvious timing error in the foul, whistle, horn, shot sequence. 6.6.2 exceptions 2 and 3 talk about quarters ending, but the idea is the same.

The amount of time it take to progress from starting the act of shooting to the release is not specified. That interval of time can most definitely be affected by a foul. In absense of a foul, the shot may or may not have been released in time. Being forced to put up a shot through the foul can (and usually will) cause the shooting motion to take a little longer....particularly if the foul is very early in the shooting motion such as when the player is pivoting prior to releasing the ball on a typical post move.

I'm of the camp that if the foul is committed (and the whistle is blown) before the horn, then the clock was not properly stopped and horn sounded in error and is, as a result, irrelevant.

Waive off the basket. Penalize the foul with 2 or 3 free throws awarded to B1, accordingly.;)

Count the bucket, shoot one, keep playing. Player was fouled in the act of shooting, habitual motion has started. If it's not the end of the game, don't beat yourself up.

Just a thought...
 

The case book clearly says that you don't count the basket and give the shooter 2 or 3 shots. -- FED and NCAA
NCAA rules state that you shall go to the monitor on this situation to see if the foul occurred and/or the shot was released before the horn or 0.00 on the clock. And if the foul occurred before the expiration of time, you put the time back on the clock that remained when the foul occurred, not when the whistle blew.
Question is this: By putting time back on the clock, the period never expired and the horn shoudn't have sounded.
Do we then count the basket because of the timing error?
Which rule supercedes the other?

Not trying to sound like a jerk...but could you please point out in the case book and NFHS rulebook (not with me at the current moment, and would like to look it up later) why the basket would NOT count?

Whether it was "foul", "horn", "release" OR "foul", "release", "horn" on the make, wouldn't the foul cancel out the shot clock? She'd be in the act of shooting regardless of whether ANY horn went off, right?

Again, not trying to sound like a smarta#%, just really intrigued by this question. Thanks!:D

Think of it as a last shot situation.

On your "foul, "horn", "release" the shot will not count due to the horn sounding she did not release the shot before the horn Rule 7-7-5 see exception a & b) although the player started the shooting motion.

On the "foul, "release" "horn" the shot will only count if the shooter release the ball before the horn. In this situation you will allow the shooter to complete the try for goal. See Rule 7-7-5 exception c

I hope this clear it up a little more.

If you put time back on the clock, the basket should count.

Now; how in the world are you finding old threads like this? More importantly, why?

Thanks, I'll take a look tonight. I just thought that in "foul", "horn", "release", the "foul" and being in the act of shooting would still allow the bucket if the "release" was after the horn (again, being in the act of shooting...I know this all happens in a split second...for example if the shooter is really strong and muscles through the fould after the horn and gets the shot off).

I'll look it up tonight. Again, I appreciate the rulebook reference points!

Can you explain this one a little more?

The rule states the basket shall not count if time has expired prior to the release of the shot. Previously, in NFHS, there was a lag time rule which essentially prohibited officials from putting time back on if the whistle blew with less than 1 second on the clock. This meant, if there was a foul, whistle, horn, release situation (in that order), the basket could not count.
With the removal of lag time, we can now put time back on the clock if we see how much time should be put back on.

IOW, if you have the foul, whistle, horn, release, but one official sees .8 seconds on the clock after the whistle, you can put .8 seconds on the clock. Since time hasn't expired, the basket should count.

PTS solves this whole problem :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

In theory, I guess I see this. In reality, the length of time for the shooting motion versus the length of time for the obvious timing error which caused the release to come after the buzzer is something which would be almost impossible to occur. Anybody ever see this happen?

Not likely to happen often. It's possible, though, especially if the foul causes a "pump fake" action from the shooter. Or, on a layup, if the foul occurs early in the shooting motion, the entire shooting motion could take a full second or more.

I'd have to see this one.

Really? Look up when the shooting motion starts. There's plenty of time for the scenario. Frankly, 1 second is a conservative figure.

I checked in my NFHS rulebook for 07-08, and in my book, there is no 7-7-5. The "Rule 7" has to do with "Out of Bounds and Throw In", and only goes to Rule 7, Section 6, Article 5. The closes I could find concerning this post was 5-6, exception 3, stating....

"If a fould occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as it 2-10 is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for 4th q or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game."

Still trying to find a rule where it would NOT count the bucket for "foul", "whistle", "horn", "release", where clock couldn't get stopped in time.

Any help would be great:D

See rule 6-7-6. Note that exception (a) is not applicable because the try is not in flight when the horn sounded. Sooooooo, in this situation.....foul-->whistle-->horn-->release....you would NOT count the bucket.

Also see case book play 5.6.2SitD.

That's the particular rule/wording I'd been looking for, in 6-7-6 exception c saying "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight".

So here's the exception saying that in this foul case, the ball must be "released" before horn, even though "act of shooting" motion began before horn ended and release came after horn. Thanks a bunch. Just wanted to find it in rule book. It may never happen to me in a game, but if it does, I want to be able to calmly refer the irate coach of the shooter's team to the rule that says the basket does NOT count (and I'm sure he/she will have a litter of kittens on that particular call) Thanks again! :D

No it doesn't. The time put back on the clock is when the foul occurred not when the whistle blew. The whistle might blow after the horn and time still gets put back on.

Huh? What's the rule backing for this? AFAIK, you cannot put time back on the clock unless it was not properly stopped and if the ref has definite knowledge. Not properly stopped requires a whistle, and the clock continuing to run after the whistle. :confused: