...so I ran him...
 

really ugly 7th grade boys' game. lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game. Both coaches complaining about the no-calls about equally. 3rd quarter, in front of V coach, who's ahead by about 12 or so, ball turns over and we're racing back the other way. I'm new trail, watching the press. As I run up the sideline right next to the coach, he jumps up and lands on one stomping foot and then the other, simultaneously throwing his hands straight up in the air, right in front of my face, and shouting (loud enough that my partner on the far endline heard him), "Wwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!" See title. Sheez.

ran him .... out of the game with 2, or to his seat with 1?

What about ran him with just one....;)

Flagrant. Making a travesty of the game. You got a problem with that?

No problem here .. hope he learned his lesson!

Yup, I hope so, too. I also hope the dad who came up to me and told me that I "can't give a flagrant technical to a coach" learns his lesson when he calls my assignor and reports me, as he threatened/promised to do.

And I raaaannnn......I ran so fa awwaaayyyyy........I just raaannn, I could not get aawwwaayyy...........I couldn't get away.

If you remember, you are likely old.

Peace

Those parents are the most fun..:D ..

"Hey pardner, lets throw the rulebook out cause we have another game after this....."

I do. How is a coach stomping and yelling making a travesty of the game? :confused:

Unsporting? Yeah. Ejection? Possibly. But I don't see how that makes a travesty of the game. Perhaps the travesty was ignoring "lots and lots of fouls......because the clock was ticking on toward the next game." http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...mages/skep.gif

I have a problem with the blue part. I know when I played if officials weren't making foul calls I took that as license to be a hatchet man.

Call the fouls until all the players foul out if that's what you have to do.

<i>My little runaway
Run, run, run, run, runawaaaaay...</i>

If you remember that, you are older than old. :D

Del Shannon.

I agree with this, but I wasn't on my turf, just helping out a friend, and I didn't realize the philosophy before I got into it. I know, I know, just call my game, but it didn't seem to me that I had the right to impose myself on a whole different situation than I'm used to. I adopted the "get in, get done, get out" thing, and just got out. And I won't be back anytime soon!

Yea, perhaps travesty isn't the best word. It was just so clearly not a basketball related action. It was a personal threat and it had nothing to do with what was happening in the game.

If it feels good, do it. :)

In your judgement, the call was appropriate for the situation. 'Nuff said. It's always a judgement call from the calling official right from the git-go anyway.

I guess I don't have a "problem" with it. But a technical foul, even a flagrant one, is not the penalty for making a travesty of the game, by rule.

I never pictured you with that particular hairstyle. . .

And yes, I'm old.

Rainmaker, I understand the "get in, get done get out" approach. However, when, I am in a new environment this is when I be more assertive.

1. I want to let them know I understand the game and officiating

2. I want them to know that they will get a well officiated game with out regards of who is officiating.

I would have just penalized the behavior initially. If for some reason the coach still does not understand. I would have run the coach. It appears that the initial problem was there was a lot of foul, which would have been called if it was not for a time restraint. I ask we as officials be carefully on how we approach time constraints. Would it have been any different it the game went into overtime? I believe not.

Personally, I do not have a problem on running the coach. The way it was presented is you ran the coach, because of the jumping up and down on the sideline. This may not be the entire picture. JMO.

It was the stomping, the waving his hands very pointedly right in front of my face, and the bellowing directly in my ear. It was a single act, timed to happen just as I was right in front of him. It was a physical, personal threat, designed to intimidate and belittle me. Designed, I say!!

OK, this is the entire picture. You did not initially include that in your original post. You did right to run the coach!

Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself? :rolleyes:

You're the one that questioned, not me!

Where did I question?

I didn't question.

truerookie didn't question.

But you certainly answered him quite defensively. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/naughty.gif

"It was the stomping, the waving his hands very pointedly right in front of my face, and the bellowing directly in my ear. It was a single act, timed to happen just as I was right in front of him. It was a physical, personal threat, designed to intimidate and belittle me. Designed, I say!!"

Get in, get done, get out in this situation is a complete cop out.

If you are in a new situation you should take the opportunity to raise their level to the level you are accustomed too and not lower yourself to theirs. As officials we should feel obligated to always do our best and the best for the game regardless of partners or situations...call our game, and hopefully raise the bar for everyone else.

Rainmaker...I have no problem with running the coach based on his behavior (particularly as you expanded on it in a later post). However............

Like others before me in this thread, I question the boldfaced line above even if it was, as you amplified on in another subsequent post, the local "philosophy". That's a bad, bad philosophy and I would take the heat from fellow officials/site administrators for dorking up their schedule before I would adopt it. And I suspect the schools involved expected an honestly officiated game.

The game is about the kids, not the coaches, not the parents, not the officials, not the game administrators, not the schedule, etc, etc, etc. Particularly at the 7th grade level where coaching and physical/basketball IQ and skills may not be so advanced.

Finally, two questions...
1) Was the eventually ejected coach aware of this "philosophy"?
2) If so, did he agree to it?

If the answer to either is no, then it's difficult to fault him if foul after foul after foul is not called.

true rookie said, "Personally, I do not have a problem on running the coach. The way it was presented is you ran the coach, because of the jumping up and down on the sideline. This may not be the entire picture. JMO."

I originally posted, "he jumps up and lands on one stomping foot and then the other, simultaneously throwing his hands straight up in the air, right in front of my face, and shouting (loud enough that my partner on the far endline heard him), "Wwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!"" I was just clarifying that it wasn't just for jumping up and down.

You said, "I do. How is a coach stomping and yelling making a travesty of the game?

Unsporting? Yeah. Ejection? Possibly. "

I took that as questioning. I guess I misunderstood. I don't feel defensive about making the call. Which is rare for me, I usually question everything I do.

Frankly, I don't feel defensive about the tone of the games and the no-calls. I was helping out a friend, and I did it in the way that would be helpful to him. For me to assert (inject?) my own philosophy into a situation that had nothing to do with me was simply not appropriate. I will assert myself next time by simply not doing those games again.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/bs_sign.gif

See BZ's post. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/agree.gif

I just think you're dismissing a lot of things. Based on what you've said, the way the game was called was not fair to the kids. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just me. Anyway, I'm done.

Do you still write an article for the paid portion of this site? Thanks for reminding me again why I don't subscribe to that. While the humor many of my officiating friends and I find in posts like this may be worth a few bucks, in the long run, the complete disregard for and misapplication of the game surely won't make me a better official.

Carry on rant.

I have no idea if the coach deserved to be ejected or not. That's entirely your call. However, I would never change my reffing style because of time constraints. Just ref your usual game. Time constraints are not your concern.

Well, I like your little smilies, although I don't appreciate the "BS" implications. Why can't we just agree to disagree without getting vulgar?

I gotta admit, I'm quite surprised by the response to this thread. I respect most of you very much, and have learned a lot from almost all of you. I know that sometimes the format here gets in the way of us fully understanding what we're saying to each other, but I suspect there's more to this disagreement than that. So because in general your opinions are important to me, and I'd like to explore what's going on here so I can "do better next time", could we find a way to continue this as a discussion, rather than an arguement? Even after considering the various opinions, I don't feel that what I did today was a disservice to The Game, but I'm willing to change my mind.

A lot of the refs that were working at this tournament today are very good refs, that are committed to always doing a great job. This wasn't the hacks and slackers that just want to take their checks and go home. How do I weigh their opinions against those that I'm hearing here? People I respect equally, and who I suspect would respect each other, who are completely opposite on this one thing. Is there a way to discuss this out to some sort of resolution?

"Lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game."


Sorry, but I highly doubt that I'd respect any official that supported this philosophy, nor would I be passing on them if I was in that situation.

I've done countless tournaments over the years, with countless tournament directors worrying about staying on schedule and making suggestions about it, and not once have I passed on calls just to keep anyone on schedule. They don't want to use me again fine, I'd rather not work for someone that would trade player safety for staying on schedule anyway.

Discussion requires an alternate point of view worthy of consideration, that is not the case here.

Let me say this to you. I was in a HS tournament this year where we where told very explicitly to "let them play" and keep the games moving. This tournament involved some of the top D1 prospects in the country and they wanted us to allow the players to showcase their talent and keep the games on time. Now we tried to do that to the best of our ability. But after a few games we just called our game. Not much we could do then just our best.

I have no problem if everyone you worked with was doing the same thing. I also feel that many times we live in fantasy world or a very moralistic ideology on this web site mainly because we are after all reading something in basically black and white. Real world officiating does not work like that. We make all kinds of judgments based on other factors. If you were not calling fouls because there were outside pressures insisting you do so, that is not something most of us can say from here. In most situations I would never let some things go because of time frame, but you were working a 7th grade boys game that are not always the most well played games around. I do not have a major problem with your approach because most of us have been in a similar situation and I seriously doubt they pitched too much of a fit over it.

Peace

Okay, you don't respect me, and nothing I could say could change your mind about that. I can respect that.

Anyone who feels there's some possibility that there might be some middle ground here? Anyone who can see past the us-them black-white mentality to something approaching the possibility of judgment, flexibility, team work?

Do not feel bad. I think BZ does not like anyone that does not think exactly like him.

Peace

Thank you for seeing past the rhetoric. I get the feeling maybe I just didn't explain the situation very well. Good grief, we didn't pass on anything important, and we certainly didn't favor one team or the other. We called what needed to be called, but there were just tons and tons of little bumps, unskilled arm knocks, jostles, stumbles, travels that may or may not have been caused by marginal contact, the usual low-level 7th grade stuff. Would I have called it tighter if left to myself? Yes. But I also understand the need for "real world pressures" as you say, Jeff, to be considered. If it had been a school game instead of a rec league thing, and I'd have called it my way, it would have taken two and a half hours, or more. We called it pretty tight in the first half, and they just weren't learning. So we just started letting a lot of the A/D borderline stuff go. I can't see how that's selling my soul for a mess of pottage.

I had an experience today that contains some of the elements you had. I was working with a new partner in a travel league that I work every week. He was helping out the assignor. It became clear very early that we were not on the same page. He was surely competent -- both in rules and mechanics -- but he really wasn't interested in "working" these games.

I work every game properly. I hustle, I switch, I apply rules properly and fairly. He did none of those things -- and clearly resented my efforts to make him work better. He told me that he doesn't discipline coaches because nothing good comes of it.

We got through the first game OK, but the second game was a problem with the visiting coach, who made it clear she did not like our officiating. She was upset that we did not call enough fouls. In the first half, her team was shooting double bonus and in the second half, there were nine fouls against the other team and three against hers. I thought we handled the game fine. Not perfect, but fine.

After the game, she was demanding names, phone numbers, lawyers names (just joking) and anything else she could.

Did I mention this was 5th grade girls? Division 4. (Division 1 is the "best.") Her players were not as good as the other team. That's why they lost.

I have worked games where I was assigned one place and had to quickly go to the other. Then told by the assignor to "do not take very long" on the first game. It happens to the best of us and in many situations. Sometimes it is the AD or coach that wants to go home early. I will say usually in basketball it does not happen where people are openly trying to go home early. I can tell you as a Baseball Umpire and past Softball Umpire, it is common to have a coach in the pre-game introductions to tell the umpires to get the game over with. In basketball it is a more subtle when that point is being made. I worked two freshman games last Monday and the home coach was insisting on convincing the visiting coach to have a very short half-time and even talked about a shortened game to "get you guys home."

Peace

You are not the first to take this approach, but I personally find it totally unacceptable.

I'm not sure I understand what this part means. You are there to call 1/3 or 1/2 of a ball game, it seems to me quite necessary to "impose yourself" on the situation. Where exactly was this, as opposed to "your turf"?


This sounds a lot like backpeddling to me. I'm not sure what pottage is. Anything like potted meat? Careful, you know what they say is in there.

All right, then.*


*Carl......Sling Blade

It really depends on the style of basketball... in a 7th grade boys game, I usually will not call a LOT of fouls.. I call the obvious, blatant ones... if something happens inside that doesn't give one player the advantage, and there are a couple bodies around, i most likely wont call it. but if it is out in the open, and its a foul, i call it. The ones down in the paint, or with 2-3 bodies around, I may or may not call it. it depends on the severity and whether or not it gives an advantage to one player/team. If the coach says anything, I can just reply with "coach, you must have had a different angle than i did" or "my view was blocked coach, i couldnt get a look at the play from any angle i took", and the complaining usually stops there. I know a lot of people may disagree with this, but to each his/her own.

I think part of the problem is people read what you wrote and make assumptions about what you meant. I think we've all been there in 7th grade games; you realize if you call everything, you're going to be there all day. What's more, the kids aren't going to learn how to play if you call every travel and double dribble and foul. Your bar for "advantage" goes up a bit sometimes.
That said, saying it the way you did insinuates that you just want to get in and get out with your check. I know you well enough through this forum to know that's not your schtick; so I figured you weren't letting felonies go for the sake of staying on schedule.

So maybe I just didn't word it very well? I'll try again. I was "letting them play." I was "holding the whistle". I was "adjusting to my partner". I was "looking for the A/D". I was "trying to be in control without being controlling". The reason I was doing this was because that's how my partner, who I was trying to help by filling in, told me they do it. I was "adjusting to fit into the prevailing culture -- trying to call it the way the assignor wants it called." It wasn't a problem in the first game, we called what needed calling, and we got done in a good time with no one too ticked off. Somehow the second game was different. Will I do it again? No way. I compromised on my style and "my game", but I don't think I compromised my morals or ethics. I wasn't "selling out The Game". It wasn't "immoral". It also wasn't comfortable or pleasant, and I don't want to be in that situation again.

It wasn't "take the check and run." In fact, my partner and I stayed and talked about the situation for quite a while afterward during the next game. He's a top notch ref, and I wanted to know how he could let so much go and feel okay about it. It was a valuable learning experience. Although I've learned more I expected after sharing here!!

Go back, edit your 1st post, and just leave in the part about running the coach. :D

There was recently a dust-up about every game being as important as the next game blah blah blah. The first sentence of your original post got my attention because I read it as you saying this game was *so* unimportant that you stopped blowing the whistle to keep it moving along.

I am definitely not in the "every game is as important as every other game" camp but I have also never let keeping the games on schedule get in the way of me calling the game right. Maybe it was just your wording but the idea you got across to me was that you stopped blowing in order to get the game done. IMO if the directors are concerned about the day's schedule they need to add 15 minutes or so to the allotted time for each game.

That said, sounds like a good T and ejection.

Okay, you pulled me back in since you finally want to "discuss" it.
 

Vulgar? Since when did a smiley holding a BS sign become vulgar and since when did you start being so sensitive? :confused:

I don't know if you did a disservice to the game or not? I only know what you wrote. Did you not describe it well? I don't know that either. All I can go on is what you wrote. "lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game. Both coaches complaining about the no-calls about equally."

Do you want to know what that sounds like? You ignored a lot of calls because you wanted the game to be over. Coaches complained, you ignored more, until finally, one of them snapped. You know what? I would have snapped, too.

Now, hopefully that isn't what happened, but I think that's how it came across to most of us.

Rainmaker, I wasn't there. Didn't see it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but 7th grade boys games are brutal, the coach thinks he's Bobby Knight and all the parents think there little Johnny is the next Micheal Jordan. Just T him up, put his seat belt on. Your emotions got the best of you, "tough game, tough coach" you lost it for a moment. Sounds like that to me. I try to stay as far away of those games as humanly possible. I did those games earlier in my career and I almost quite reffing because of it.

Well, it is what happened and it isn't. The "lots and lots of fouls" part meant little fouls, touch fouls, borderline stuff. I should have worded that differently. I should have said, "It was a rough, ugly game with a lot of unskilled physical play."

The coaches complained because they didn't have a clue about the situation. They were the type of people who would have complained, "For Pete's sake, let 'em play!" if we'd have called the things they wanted called. It wasn't so rough that anyone got hurt.

My big question at this point is how and when to adjust the "my game" thing. If I had known ahead of time how the situation would be, I probably would have tried to weasel out of the games, somehow. I hate those kinds of tournaments, and I don't like what they do to my morning! Still, there I was. I can't just walk out, can I? If my primary purpose is to help out a friend, does it make sense to make his whole morning miserable? "My game" can include "letting 'em play", I've been working on that. I'm not a compulsive tight-azz about calling unskilled hacks and bumps that don't really have much contact and don't really affect play. Learning to "hold my whistle" is one of my accomplishments in the last year or so. When does it become selling out, to stretch that out a little further?

I say don't adjust to something you don't feel comfortable with. I adjusted my game one time this season to fit my partner's play-calling and it turned into a wretched game, IMO.

There's a difference between letting skilled players play through marginal fouls in a high-level all-star game or off-season tournament as opposed to watching 12 & 13 year-old boys and girls turn a basketball game into a modern day version of "smear the queer".

The success of the "let 'em play" philosophy usually has a direct correlation to the skill level of the players. The better the players, the easier it is to "let 'em play".

I think all the arguing over what you did or did not call is a little silly. As long as you were consistent, I don't think the coaches have a complaint.

I think I have a bigger issue with running the coach on the first technical foul. I know that you say you felt threatened and deemed his action flagrant, but if that was the case, with all of the complaining that you say he was doing earlier in the game, I feel like there had to be an opportunity to give him a T somewhere along the way before you ran him.

That would have either put a stop to it and made your game better, or made the ejection a very easy decision if it didn't.

i see where rain is coming from -- like JR said -- its 7th grade boys -- there is a very good chance that the game is sloppy and judging advantage/disadvantage over crap/crappier play is tough. in a blowout we tend to get even more lenient because WE dont want to drag it out -- thats real world application of officiating. Call the obvious all the time and let the crap just settle to the bottom.

I have not problem running a 7th grade coach over what was described -- remember put it in perspective 7th grade basketball. not the League chapionship versus 2 nationally ranked teams.

**if you are going to comment on this post please leave all PC and moral comments at home (remember I DONT care about the kids) -- I am not about to have another debate on that line -- what i said above is the reality of the situation and you cannot change my belief in that**

And rain -- always call the game you feel most comfortable calling -- if they dont like it they dont have to offer you more games. And you shouldnt want to work there any more.

Wow...nothing like being judgemental to start off the week on a good note.

When Rut supported me, I had a shadow of a doubt, but now that you do too, deecee, I'm seriously reconsidering my position. Could I be sliding over to the flipside?!?! :D :D

note smilie, just kidding, no offense intended!

Ditto for me.

Flock of Seagulls. Not as old as Del Shannon's "Runaway", LOL, but old enough.

BTW, Rainmaker, I knew what you meant. You weren't letting fouls go uncalled, you were letting incidental contacts go uncalled. LOL.

If it's that big of a deal, just go to the guy and tell him. "look, I know we want to get out of here but this is getting to rough. let's tighten it up, shall we?" Then, even if he doesn't, he knows where you stand.

Clumsy is not a foul. But when they get clumsy, you've really got to work hard to make sure the real fouls get called.

Yea, that's a good sentence, "Let's tighten it up, shall we?"

One thing I did say that helped: Early in the 4th quarter, a player was complaining, "They're pushing!" I said, "Well, stand somewhere else, so they can't." That player got the next three rebounds, two defensive and one offensive. He sort of helped his team pull out from the key, and play a little more cleanly. They ended up winning by around 20.