Coach won't tolerate players getting technicals
 

A local coach is sitting players down when they get a technical foul. His stand isn't popular with the parents. Who would have guessed, right? Anyway, thought I'd share the article, written by a friend of mine, the local prep sports editor.

Applauding Poole’s stance on conduct

I coached HS ball for 15 years. That seems a bit harsh to me. Certainly sends a message though. I always wanted my teams to play with emotion - add to that the fact that these are kids - they are going to make emotional mistakes. While I agree that they need to learn there are consequences for their actions - I think the damage it does to the team in that game is enough. There are specific rules set up inside the game to handle the situation. I always removed a player immediately after a "T" to settle them down and would always talk to them before they went back in the game. While this is certainly within the coach's ability to do, I personally think this is pretty extreme.

I applaud it. He's teaching his players self-discipline. It will make them better players in the long run because they will learn to keep their focus. I spent a few years in a difficult urban environment, and the first thing that the kids had to learn was to have respect for themselves and rise above difficult circumstances. I imagine he's dealing with similar issues.

I agree that it may be harsh to sit someone a whole extra game because of a T, but it appears that this is a habitual problem with some of these kids.
It also would seem that it is more than the occasional emotional reaction.
Some of what these kids see on TV in the NBA, makes them believe some of their reactions and attitudes which generate a T, are acceptable.
I think the coach is doing what he needs to do to control his players. More power to him.
If we as officials wouldn't tolerate even the little comments from some of these players, it would be hypocritical of us to question the disciplinary methods of this coach.

More power to him!! I always applaud situations like this where someone sets high standards for the youth of our country...he has pretty much the same code that ALL of the coaches in the league I played in way back when used (of course, this was back in the late 70's)...all 9 schools in the league had the same policy - get an unsporting T and you sit the rest of the game. Get it in the 4th qtr. or OT and you sat the first half of your next game. The AD's and coaches enforced it, too - trust me, I know!!:o I hope other coaches in your area pick it up, Tony!

From the article....

“If they want to go to the next level, coaches see that. Coaches don’t want to have to put up with that. How you act, how you carry yourself, will dictate a lot of things as far as your future goes.’’

I had a scout who works for a college scouting service tell me that if he sees a kid get a technical foul the kid automatically goes off their list because college coaches have told them that they don't even want to hear about them or deal with them. This service gets a lot of calls from smaller colleges as well as bigger schools. So it sounds like there is some truth in this statement. It will be interesting to watch to see if in fact the number of T's drop this year and the coming years,

They aren't talking about kids playing with emotion. They're talking about kids acting in an unsporting manner. They are two completely different things. Completely different.

No, not at all. When emotions get out of hand - that's what causes the unsporting manner. Not an excuse, but certainly how it happens. I think a kid getting pi$$ed at himself for a stupid mistake - slams the ball and tries to catch and misses the ball - get's whacked. Does that deserve sitting that game plus one more? No way. Yes, that's an unsporting act - but emotions out of control. Sorry, I disagree - not completely different.

Just a note- this coach's teams have won their conference title or finish second in each of the past 10 seasons. During that stretch, his teams have been to the state finals twice and to the semi's on two other occasions. Rarely a year goes by that he doesn't have 2 or 3 kids sign with D-1 or D-2 schools. That includes ACC and SEC schools. He's also sent a number of kids to Winthrop, a team that everybody hates to see in their NCAA bracket.

In short, I don't think he's a fly by night act. He's obviously been successful with his philosophies.

Fifth Grade Technical Foul
 

I often officiate for a local Catholic school league. Weeknight games are called "varsity" games and involve players up to eighth grade. Weekend games are called "junior varsity" games and involve much younger players. The assigner for these "junior varsity" games wants them to be officiated in an "educational manner". In one particular play, my partner called a fifth grade player for a travelling violation, after which the player responded "No way", and tossed the ball away from both me and my partner. I went over to the player and attempted to speak to him about tossing the ball to the nearest official in such a situation, however, he kept ignoring me, and kept walking away from me. I had no plans on giving him a technical foul, nor was I going to ask him to go get the ball for my partner, which I have done in the past. Since he ignored me and kept walking away from me, I blew my whistle, and called a technical foul for his unsportmanlike "No way" and for him not tossing the ball to the nearest official, thus delaying the game. It was just a regular technical foul, not flagrant, but it happened to be his fifth, so he was disqualified from the game. Later, when I was near the player's coach, the coach thanked me for giving his player a technical, and that maybe this would straighten out his bad attitude. Also, later, while I was near a sideline, an adult, who identified herself as the player's mother, also thanked me for giving her son a technical foul, because he could be real stubborn at times, even at home. This was the first technical foul that I called this season, in any level game, high school varsity, Catholic school "varsity", and Catholic school "junior varsity", to either a player or a coach. I've heard Forum members say to call a technical foul if it's going to make the game better. In this case it certainly did.

I guess I need to go back and read the story. I don't recall that it said he sat kids for such a reason.

That's great for him. I don't think I said he was WRONG - but I said that I personally felt it was extreme - I wouldn't do it but he's the coach of the team.

I don't remember writing that you said he was wrong. Further, I'm not sure how you can say you wouldn't do something when you aren't in his shoes. You don't know what the situation is so how do you know what you would do?

It may appear extreme from an outsider looking in. But from having worked this team, both during the season and in a local summer league, I can assure you they're not being penalized for "emotional mistakes." In two games in the summer league this year, I recall 3 T's that I called and an ejection in another game. THe kids were out of control.

This is a case of a coach putting his foot down when it needed to be put down.

Regardless of whether the kid deserves it or not if he plays for this coach he'll think twice next time about slamming the ball down, won't he?

I don't know about you, but to me that's a good thing. Part of being a responsible, productive adult is knowing when to keep your emotions in check and your mouth shut.

I nailed a 5th grader once in a YMCA game for yelling "These guys suck!" after he didn't agree with something. Coach pulled him for a while, and after the game, his Dad made him apologize to me.
Much better than the parents of the kid my partner hit with a flagrant personal this year; who called the home school's AD and complained that he (the AD) was taking away her son's "right" to play. :(

I do not give many technical fouls and I applaud this action. If a kid cannot control their behavior then they do not need to be on the court. It is not hard to not get called for a T. It is very easy to do. These kids need to realize that they are not in the pros and just play the game. There is too much whining from kids over the silliest things. Good for the coach no matter what kind of T is given.

Peace

You know what? From recent POE's and bulletins, it seems that the NFHS, the NCAA and even the NBA agrees with you. They all say that emotion is not an excuse for unsporting actions.

I do not know if they agree with me rather than I agree with them. I have felt for a long time that a player can control their behavior in such a way to not get T'd up. I have no problem with excitement or any other kind of exuberance. But to behave in an unsporting manner is not acceptable. You do not have to T kids every time they do something, but they should at the very least know where you stand. Then if they choose to continue their behavior at least they had some idea what might happen (not that it is required to give warnings either).

Peace

Very well said, I concur completely and for what coach Poole's doing too. A signed contract that he makes the parents sign, not a bad idea. Obviously, they are having problems in this area and he is attempting to get control of it. Believe me when I say this will make our job easier, more on this later.

This is the very reason why I applaud the coach who attempts to solve his problems before they reach the court. So much is expected of officials. They now want us to solve their kids behavior problems.

But what burns me more than anything else is when some of us say giving a player a T is going to make them a better person in life. Playing a game of bball is not the same as problems you have in your everyday life and we really need to backup off of that. It's ridiculous. It's just a game. If someone is a bad person on the floor doesn't mean they are a bad person in life or vice-versa. Also, administrators, coaches, and parents need to get their players (or staff personal) straighten out before they reach the floor. Quit putting this burden on the officials to straighten out in the games.

Case in point, I'm working a girls HS game and the home team coach is trying to start a riot. I'm trying to get thru the game without accessing a T, I'm working with it. Games just about other, close game. I go talk to the A/D on a injury timeout, and I ask, why is this person coaching? She's out of line. He tells me to give her a T and that will give him the ammunition he needs to get rid of her. Now the A/D knows this coach is OOL, but it's now my problem. Now I got to deal with her crazy azz in this game. How about you take care of business before I get here, and all I got to do is worry about refereeing the game.

Just my 2 cents....

I don't believe that any official (other than you) would be so unprofessional as to evaluate a coach's behaviour to their AD; I find it even less likely that any AD would discuss staffing matters with an official. What do I know though; I'm in Canada.

Regardless, because your comments may cause newer officials to act ignorantly:

1) You weren't "working with it," Schooly.
2) You were being worked and, in the long run, making life difficult for other officials.
3) Your job is to administer the rules of the game; the AD's job is to deal with their athletes and coaches.

Therefore, it's your job to administer the T when valid and it's the AD's job to deal with the coaches.

Wow! 10 posts in, and K-Bach already has it all figured out!:D

Well, I'm a coach and I'm fine with it (as long as if this coach gets a "T", he abides by the same rules - he removes himself from the bench and can't coach - what's good for the goose...).

Frederick County, MD requires if a player get's 2 grades below a 70, that they sit out indefinitely until both grades are above 70... I've made it tougher - if you have any grades below an 80, you sit out 1 game - below a 75, you sit indefinitely until all grades are 80 and above. Also, my girls are required to do 2 community service projects that I decide... Parents didn't like it when I told them about this - considering it costs them money for their girls to play (U-15 AAU), so I told them to make sure that their girls do well in school - or they don't play - although I want all my girls to go on to be college and pro-stars, I feel it is my responsibility to prepare them for the fact that most of them won't... Athletics is such an easy way to push kids to be there best (in life - not just athletics).

I agree that coaches should not get Ts either, but the coaches are adults. Children need to understand that there is a different standard when you an adult as to when you are a child. You do not need the same rule to apply to player and coach. That is my opinion. ;)

Peace

I completely disagree (respectfully of course..)

If you are going to pull a player because he lost control of his/her emotions, then you as a coach, had better not loose control of yours. If my player gets frustrated at a call and slams the ball to the ground and receives a T... I pull that player and sit them and won't play them again that game... 15 minutes later, I get pissed at a call that I didn't like and kick my chair or throw my clipboard... I get T...

How does being an adult justify my actions. It doesn't... Not in any way.

As a coach, you can't preach what you don't practice... if you do, you will lose the respect of your team and really send them the wrong message.

I think you are missing my point. Adults are adults, children our children. I do not expect a coach to enforce a rule the exact same for him that he has for the players. Players are the ones doing the running up and down the court, not the coach. Should a coach run suicides (lines or whatever you call them) when they make a mistake? Of course not. You do not have to agree with that, but I believe what rules adults will set have little or nothing to do with the children have to adhere to. When they start paying bills and taking total responsibility for their lives, then they will have more say. Even then someone will set some rules that they personally will not have to adhere to (boss, spouse, their children ;)).

Peace

old school -- sometimes i try and defend you -- but here I cannot -- the AD should have issued you a T.

as for what this coach is doing great for him!!!

Many coaches preach a tough philosophy, but when faced with following through and benching one of their top players for a big game they buckle. Parents will whine about something or the other -- I think as a coach your single most important philosphy should be DLITGTFO -- "Dont like it then get the F*&% out" :)

I get the point of adults / kids rules... but, this is a fine line when you are the example, the mentor that is supposed to be teaching things like sportsmanship and character - do as I say, not as I do doesn't apply to character....NEVER... example... HS coach kicks kid off team for getting DUI, two weeks later, coach gets DUI...private school, so no board to do anything... headmaster gives a formal reprimand and a second chance... what kind of lesson has been taught here...

Again, I'm a coach, not a ref.. I read here all the time... I have seen that "Unsporting is Unsporting" no matter what... this goes for coaches as well as players... if a coach is going to pull a player for a T, he/she had better pull themselves if they get one... because sportsmanship is learned and taught...

You know what you tell the kids, "Life is not fair." There are a lot of situations where punishments are not equal. I am not saying a coach should not hold himself/herself to a higher standard. I am just saying that even if a coach gets T, I do not have a problem with no one expecting a coach to take a similar punishment. I know as an official I do not allow players to behave the same way as an adult (I am not the only one that feels that way either). If I do not give Ts to coaches for the same reason as a player, I do not think a coach should have the same penalty. Once again, just a personal opinion.

Peace

I can understand maybe making someone sit because of their grades if it is a school sanctioned team, but this? Most schools have academic stop lists for players that aren't doing well.
Why is it your responsibility to prepare these kids for their future? That's what the parents are for. If I was paying for my kid to play/learn basketball, I wouldn't be too pleased either if you were imposing requirements on them that have nothing to do with the game.
Not trying to be harsh. I just don't see the significance.

if I coach I coach on my terms -- otherwise DONT LET YOUR KIDS PLAY FOR THAT COACH.

It really annoys the sh!t out of me when I coached that I would lay out what was expected and when I went to enforce or follow up the parents all seemed so shocked and make a big deal of it. Requiring your players to do some sort of community service -- especially for AAU type teams is VERY GOOD -- being a coach is more than just teaching the X's and O's of the sport and the really good ones teach the X's and O's of life though the sport that they are teaching.

IF THE PARENTS DONE LIKE IT FIND ANOTHER TEAM OR COACH TO HAVE YOUR KIDS PLAY ON

Go take a valium deecee, you need to relax.

I have no problems with coaches setting the bar for their kids. I've coached soccer, baseball and basketball, and all the kids and parents are well informed as to what is expected from them. I'm focused on teaching them the game and good sportsmanship. There are plenty of life lessons to be learned there without cleaning roadsides and visiting nursing homes. JMO

1. You have to be intelligent to play basketball on my team - if not, your lost! If you can't manage to get a "B" in Social Studies, then chances are, you won't be able to manage the concepts that I want you to learn on the court - also, if you can't manage to get a "B", then basketball practice 4 nights a week plus weekend games, shouldn't be your priority (imho)

2. It's not like I surprised anyone - this is something that is on a players contract signed the first day of tryouts - I'm not forcing anyone to play on my team.

3. And being responsible for you grades has EVERYTHING to do with the game. My girls know that basketball is a privelage - not a right - they have to work hard to play on my team. When they get to college - they'll be able to handle whatever a coach throws at them and get good grades at the same time. You are exactly right, I don't have to do what I do - it is the parent's job - but more reinforcement can't hurt.

4. Although a few parents didn't like the idea from the start - when their children's grades improved, they then thought it was a great policy!!

I couldn't agree more!!

Although I learned the foundation of everything I know about basketball from my HS coach Morgan Wootten, I learned much more about life from him than basketball.

Requiring your players to do some sort of community service -- especially for AAU type teams is VERY GOOD

As a teacher and as one who volunteers with various non-profits, I have long been confused about the concept of forced volunteerism. This oxymoron seem lost on a lot of people.

I prefer to organize volunteer opportunities for my students and explain the need for each of us to help others from time to time. The final decision to volunteer, however, I leave up to each student.

AMC, I don't have any problem with this, and I agree with everything you said regarding grades if it isn't already covered by a school requirement. In this case it isn't, as it is AAU. Maybe I didn't make my first post that clear. My questioning of your OP mainly concerned your community service requirement.

I wouldn't consider this forced volunteerism... anymore than I am forcing them to come to practice or games. If you miss a game, and I don't know ahead of time, or there isn't some emergency - you are off my team.. No questions asked. First day of tryouts - when I explain the contract to parents and players, I let them know that we will be doing 2 events in the community

I do understand you point though...

None. It's certainly not the responsibility of teachers and coaches to help prepare kids for the future. http://community.racingone.com/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Kudos deecee on the community involvement of your players! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/2thumbs.gif

If the Coach has determined that his players will not/can not receive a T .... what happens if one or two are tagged to him?

this was exactly the point I brought up in the beginning.

Some coaches teach that. They want to be the only ones talking to the officials during the game. Personally, I don't get involved in the philosophies anyway. None of that has got anything to do with us as officials. I just call a "T" on anyone who <b>deserves</b> one.

Have we not been discussing this very question?
 

So are you telling me the long time school Superintendent gets called for a DUI and a teacher with no tenure is caught for a DUI at the same time, do you think the punishment is going to be the same?

I am sure you know the answer to this question.

Peace

Back to the subject at hand. In my entire basketball playing career running from 6th grade up to last year when I was playing Over-32 intramurals (at 41 years of age) every single technical foul I received, except for 2, I knew I was acting out of line yet decided not to control myself.

Even at 11 years old I knew I was being an a$$ in reaction to a call I didn't like. Playing with emotion has nothing to do with getting technical fouls for unsporting behavior.

On a side note: The two I didn't think I deserved:

• The official thought I said something that I honestly did not say.

• I said to an official, "you can't penalize me for hustle" (well, maybe I did deserve that one, but at the time I was not trying to get a T)

Just an FYI, In soccer any player who gets 2 "Yellow Cards" is out for the remainder of the game plus the next game. Coaches in NFHS & NCAA soccer shown two "Yellow Cards" also out for remainder of game plus next game. I referee both Basketball and Soccer and the regarding "unsporting behavior" a technical and a "Yellow Card" are pretty much the same.

I have never understood why our state enforces the "next game" ban on Soccer players & Coaches but does not have the same requirement for Basketball players and Coaches.

if you get 2 T's you are out for that game and the next -- so what are you griping about

Being a known ref in my community I get asked to volunteer for YMCA or youth rec tournaments from time to time. I always help them out if my schedule is open. Well, a few years ago, I had a 6th grade kid slam the ball and say "whatever" when I called travel on him. I promptly gave him a technical foul....which meant he was done for the game in this league.

As I report the foul, his father (who was also the coach) says "your reffing takes the fun out of the game." The gentleman running the tournament told the coach he had to leave the gym for his inappropriate remarks. When I left the gym (5 hours later) the father was waiting for me outside. He chewed me out up and down for embarrassing him and his family. He was a real jerk and I had had enough so I said "no, you have always been an embarrassment and if you don't change soon, your son will be as well."

the offspring to LET THEM PLAY -- which of course is the ugly deformed sibling to CALL SOMETHING SOMEONE WILL GET HURT

all translate to -- My kid doesnt have the level of skill that I think he has or should be playing at to warrant any type of interest from even a JUCO college.

I think it's obvious who took the fun out of the game for his kid.

I coach MS ball in the same district as Poole, and unfortunately his leadership is more the exception than the norm
I have a similar rule, and both coaches I played for in HS had a rule requiring some type of punishment for technicals.
In all my years of basketball, I have seen ONE technical that was undeserved (an assistant standing up during a big play at the end of game). The rest were all someone acting like an idiot. Whether a technical was deserved is always debatable, but I tell my guys that if you don't do anything wrong, and play with class, then you have nothing to worry about.
BTw - the rule applies to me and my coaching staff as well (how can we expect the kids to behave if we don't?).
http://www.courier-tribune.com/artic...sports/hs1.txt

I had heard of that Randolph County situation but hadn't seen the story. Not a good sitch at all.

These quotes are from the officials!! You guys allow your refs to give post-game interviews down there? :eek:

My rule is get a T, sit the rest of the game.

I have never had a "player get T'd" in my 6 years of V.

If someone gets one with 10 seconds left in the game, I'll make a new rule I 'spose.:rolleyes:

Not to my knowledge. :(

Harsh ????
 

How could this be Harsh :confused: ????? After the kids second Technical we are going to do the same thing -by Rule. I think it is the best thing to do. Harsh is when he/she violates later in life.

First of all, we are never going to do the same thing. He disqualifies himself after receiving 2 in the same game and we do not make him sit out any games after that. Anything like that is done by a governing authority - not the officials.

I said that I think it's harsh - yes. Notice the pronoun "I" - meaning my opinion. If you read my post through, I give the coach his "due" by stating that he is sending a message and also state that he is well within his rights to enact this punishment. I'll take that a step farther and say that the kids have no right to complain since they signed a contract stating that. That being said - I still believe - and this is only MY opinion - that it is harsh. I don't believe the punishment fits the crime. Again, I'm not and never have worked in an inner-city environment but that's just the way I think.

I have since learned that there were other incidents that led to the multiple game suspension for the one player. Believe me, it was well deserved.

He continues his policy of a one game suspension for any player who receives an unsporting technical foul. I have not seen any technicals in the boxscores for this team since the coach took a harder line.

Must be working! :)

I have to agree with this statement. As a student, I was a part of a high school and college team where the coaches were "old school" with player-official interaction. Some of the stuff that went on now would not happen under their watch.

But yes, I think that as the NBA players whine and complain on every possession about calls and no-calls, it's trickled down to lower levels witht he thought that it must be acceptable.

Not sure what I think of the coach that's the subject of this thread, but if it teaches his kids not to get T's, so be it. But hopefully he makes allowance for the situation. I'd be less likely to sit a kid that got a T for hanging on the rim than I would for mouthing off to an official.

Jr, I think this is the first time we disagree. I actually hold the coach to a higher standered since he is the modle of sportsmanship. Am I alone in this??
Just my 2 cents.

fonzzy, I think you'll find that a lot of coaches have a philosophy that the only person who should get a T on his/her team is the coach. They want their players to play and leave all the interaction with the officials up to the coaches.

Similar to what I tell my teen-age son about his behavior at school. He (player) is to do what the teachers (officials) tell him, if teachers (officials) are doing something he (player) doesn't like, let me (coach) know and I (coach) will deal with the teachers (officials).

It is not about holding someone to a higher standard. I have a different standard for adults then I do with children. I do not believe people that live with their parents have the same rights as someone that was hired to run a program. When I was a kid I was told until I moved out of my parent’s house, I do not have much say. Just because it is a basketball game, does not mean some of the same things do not apply. ;)

Peace

Stat-man, note what Bktballref said about the policy:

I think the coach agrees with you. Hanging on the rim is dumb, but not unsporting.