OOB vs. Held Ball
 

GV/2-man crew:

I'm new lead, table-side on a fast break. A1 (tall, long-legged), is driving down the table-side lane towards the basket. B1 (shorter by at least 6") is setting up just below the block. I've reached the baseline and I have a perfect view for the potential block/charge collision.

Just as A1 is taking her last step to gather for her takeoff B1 suddenly steps out the way and turns to the side with her backs towards me and reaches for the ball. I am now straightlined and have no idea what's going on with the ball and their hands. B1 jerks likes she pulling at the ball and the action causes the players to spin so that now A1 comes back down to the floor but now she is closer to the baseline and she lands with one foot on the baseline.

Now my question. As I said I was straightlined when B1 initially reached for the ball. I was still straightlined when she did the jerking action. The first time I saw the ball again was when A1 landed with her foot OOB.

So, the call on this play in your opinion is:

• OOB to Team B?

• Held Ball?

If you didn't see a held ball, you're guessing if you call it.

OOB.

Based on your description and without actually seeing the play, I would think that I would call the OOB. Its the first thing I actually saw. Had a similar play earlier this year. Wasn't the most popular call I made that night. LOL. I explained how I saw it to the coach and he accepted it. By the end of the game, it was forgotten.

Sounds to me that prior to the OOB there was either a foul on B1 or a held ball. Unless I'm not reading this right, how else could B1 have spun A1 around excpet by grabbing A1 or the ball. Even if you didn't actually *see* a held ball it sounds like you did see a foul on B1 when she stepped to the side, reached out and made contact with A1.

So to me the decision is foul on B1 or held ball.

I did not see any contact from my vantage point, but A1 did immediately indicate that she felt like she was held.

If you dont see the ball dont make the call. Players often will fake like they have been fouled and with a two man crew it is often hard to get in position to see that type of stuff. I probably would have said OOB on A1 and we are going the other way.

Where was the ball when A1 landed? Still in her hands? Was B1 touching the ball? If the ball wasn't released, I'd be inclined to call held ball. If the ball went flying off somewhere, I'd call a foul. I probably wouldn't call OOB.

First I would see if my partner had any help. If not OOB an A

My conversation with the coach is likely to include, "Coach, I wasn't exactly thrilled with my angle on that; but I have to call what I see."

2-man crew, fast break...my partner was nowhere near this play.

BTW, I called OOB b/c like I said, the first time I saw the ball was when A1 was standing with her foot on the baseline. I definitely didn't see if their was a hold when B1 initially reached in and I do not know if the ball did or didn't come loose while I was straight-lined. I called the only thing that I actually saw, which was A1 and B1 in simultaneous possession of the ball and A1's foot on the baseline.

A1 must have thought I had it out for her by the end of the game b/c later on I did get her for a picture perfect player control foul in which the defender established LGP and then slid perfectly into position to absorb the charge. Then later A1 tied up a player who had just gotten a defensive rebound but A1 did so with her toe on the baseline. Team A's fans sure were letting me have it by then. (especially since somewhere along this timeline I had to T up Team A's coach).

maybe move your body or your lean your head & shoulders slightly to quickly to get a look between players? I'm not saying I could have done any better, but I agree with DAnRef in that you know it had to be either a held ball or a foul, because B1 reached in and both players spun around.

Even if you don't "see" everything, you can often deduce a lot from what you can see.

To call OOB, A loses the ball no matter what....perhaps unfairly. In calling the held ball, A may lose the ball or may not but they will at least end up with the arrow if they do lose the ball. I'm not suggesting you just call the held ball every time you can't see something, just stating what the ramifications are.

In this case, I think you've probably got a foul or a held ball based on the fact that A1's body was spun around in a way that, as described, could only be caused by B1 grabbing something. I don't think you can come up with a foul based on what was described. A1's hands were both on the ball when A1 came down. If B1's hands were on the ball when A1 came down, you've definitely got justification for a held ball. Even if B1's hands were not on the ball, the actions you did observe still suggest a held ball.


Furthermore, You can sometimes deduce a foul by B even if you can't see the contact by the physical response of A (not always, but sometimes). If B had been holding onto A's arm, you can tell by how the ball pops out and how A's arms move. For example, A1 bringing the ball up with both hands, B get's their arm in there but you can't see cleanly. A1's arms both continue up without the ball...could be clean, could be a foul. You don't have enough info to call anything. But, if A1 has one arm continue up but one arm stays down and the ball pops out awkwardly, I'm calling a foul....that only happens if B1 is hanging on the arm of A1. I don't have to see B1 hanging on A1's arm to know that it happened.

It doesn't sound like this is your case. It sounds like A1 continued to hold onto the ball with both arms. Not enough info to justify a foul.

I don't see how you can GUESS a foul or a held ball.

Are you referring to me? Note, I'm don't think it is guessing. I'm using information that I did see to deduce what has occurred. It is not necessary to see absolutely 100% of an event to know what happened.

Like a slap? You know whether it's a foul or not just by hearing it?

I'm with the "gotta see it" bunch. If the films show that I missed something, I'll hang my head in abject shame....and then forget about it.

I'm with Mr. Cameron Rust, because there is a lot you can tell from body movements. But none of us will never really know what we'd call because we didn't see it. Get us the tape and post the clip on here! Is that even possible? Just wondering for fun.

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

If you see a defender's swat in the direction of the dribbler's right arm (and you're on the dribbler's left), hear the distinct sound of skin-on-skin (or maybe not) and the angles of the arm are such that it couldn't be on the hand that is on the ball, the part of the arm that you can see moves unnaturally, as if it were hit, but you can't see the point of possible contact, and the dribbler mis-dribbles the ball such that they lose it, what else could it be?

I'm not suggesting you merely guess, just use a little of the brainpower that you clearly have to add 1+1 and get 2 rather seeing 1+1 and leaving with 0, just beacause you didn't see the 2 on paper.

I am with you on this one Cameron. I suspect everyone else is as well they just are not at the same threshhold. ie. A1 receives pass in front of you, then starts walking across the court with ball up against his chest directly away from you where you can't see the ball. Most everyone here would call travelling even though they can't see a player possessing the ball and moving his pivot foot. But we all know what has occurred.

I disagree with that statement completely. Competent officials who know the rules will <b>NOT</b> call a travel without being able to see the ball. It's the other kind that will.

Cool.

You guess. I'll only call something if I see it. We disagree philosophically.

Why are you calling it a guess? It is no such thing and I resent that characterization. I never guess. I use the information I do see/hear to determine what happened. If it is inconclusive or ambiguous, I don't make a call. It's called judgement.

As do I. While I could imagine a Globetrotter-esque play that would be an exception, I don't call a travel unless I know the player was holding the ball. If there is any possiblity that the ball was being muffed/fumbled/juggled/etc. I'm holding my whistle.

Which is exactly why I said a competent official that knows the rules wouldn't call it....:)

Coach: "How can you make that call? You were completely straight-lined and blocked out!"
Me: "I wasn't thrilled with my angle on that one either, Coach, but I smelled the held ball."
Coach::confused:

:D

I was misquoted, I say. Misquoted!

Was that you, Snaqs? I was going to try to actually cite you, but I got lazy. My apologies. Hear ye, hear ye. May it now be know heretofore on the Forum that the first portion of my previous post on this thread was originally espoused by the great Snaqwells.:D

(I really do like that line. That's why it stuck in my head.):)

I had this happen to me in GV district play-off game last year (3-man). I (in slot) didn't see the ball but the girl ran 3 steps without dribbling as soon as she caught the ball so I called a travel (play was in my primary, going away from me, of course). We go in to locker room at halftime and I bring up the play saying I couldn't believe the girl just started running with the ball, and my partner who was in the lead says "Oh, she didn't walk, the defender had the ball trapped against her chest." Of course, I'm like "WTF!!!, why didn't you come to me with that information?"

Never did get a clear answer to that question but taught me a lesson about calling something I don't see.

I made the same mistake and learned the same lesson many, many years ago. Never forgot it.