"You can't coach"
 

Last night, JV game. We got our press clicking in the second quarter and ran off a bunch of points in a row. The opposing coach was getting frustrated and taking it out on one official in particular. After he called a shooting foul on one of her players, she said something that set him off. He didn't issue a T, but came over to her and had a conversation that lasted about 30 seconds. I heard both "you can't coach" and "you are the worst coach I've seen."

Granted, I couldn't hear every word. And some of the coach's shouted comments from earlier were T-worthy. But I still couldn't believe what he said.

At the half, as the officials were getting their jackets, the opposing V coach was there (benches were first row of bleachers, right next to table) and she said something that caused him to get his whistle out of his pocket, blow it, and issue a T on her. After he left, she told us she said "that was the most unprofessionial thing I've ever heard a ref say."

On top of it all, after starting the 3rd quarter with two FTs, we got the ball but he said the arrow (pointing our way) should change, and he allowed the opposing coach to retain her coaching box privileges.

There was another confrontation AFTER the game (as the handshake lines were forming), as he came up to her with his whistle out, trying to hand it to her. Secondhand, I heard he said something like "you want to ref?" and she said something like "get out of my face, don't talk to me."

I've been coaching for 11 years, and he has been a JV ref the whole time. Dozens of newer officials have moved past him into the varsity ranks, and last night I think I saw why. I'm not absolving the opposing coaches from blame in any way. But that piece of officiating was the worst I've ever seen.

I almost forgot...

I went early and watched the freshman game, sitting near our team's bench. Our coach was mad about something, and after getting his comments out, the official looked right at him and calmly said "I respect your opinion" and hustled away. :D

That's good game management, in my opinion.

You gotta get out more.
You ain't seen me work.

Oh, the stories I could tell . . . about the time I tossed a coach, and my partner told the coach it was OK to come back AND coach his team WITH his coaching box privileges (yes, it was very early in my career and very late in his). Or the time I watched in AWE as a coach completely berated a VARSITY official in a VARSITY contest, calling him things that would get blacked out here, and he knodded his head and walked away. Or, my VARSITY contest where my co-official TOSSED the coach, then decided he didn't want to, so he took back one of the technicals AND told the coach that he could have his coaching box privileges back if he was nice the rest of the game. Oh yes, it true!

I'm certain that you missed the previous part to those sentences that went something like, "Please stick to the play and don't get personal. How would you like it if I said ..." ;)

Spoken with the grace and good judgement of a true moderator :D

Coach:

I've often dreamed about something like this.

Coaches can whine and complain and cast dispersions on a referees ability, but our code of ethics prevents us from doing likewise.

Coaches can say "That was a terrible call", but we can never say, "Coach, your play calling is terrible."

Probably out of frustration, this guy broke the code. I agree he shouldn't have, but I think your reaction is equally over the top.

AMEN!!!!! :D

Peace

What exactly is my reaction that you are saying is over the top? :confused: I did nothing last night--it was the opposing team. Are you saying my posting this today and calling it "the worst I've ever seen" is over the top? Because that is my opinion.

Maybe we just have really good officials here. I can't recall ever seeing or hearing an official make things personal. Maybe that is "hooray for the officials in the other 750 games I've coached" or "boo for this guy"; either way.

It sounds like the guy was quite the cowboy. I also think that it was very unwise for the varsity coach to say anything to him at halftime. That's not very professional either.

It makes one wonder about his partner in all of this. Glad I wasn't there.

One of these days, after I've grown a pair of cajones as proportionally large to my physique as these:

http://img.fark.com/images/squirrel.jpg

I'm going to turn to the bench, pick a player, and tell him to go check himself into the game. Then, when the coach asks me why I've done this, I'm gonna say that since he was tryint to referee, I thought I'd try coaching for a little bit. :D

Actually, I have a tendency to nip this crap early in the game, and can rely on the officials I work with to do the same and back me when I do, while I also back them when needed.

JV coach was an a$$. Official was wrong. Varsity coach was foolish. Official was wrong.

A good example of how not to manage a game.

And the coaches in your area NEVER get personal with the officials, right?

That's a lack of balls imo.

Which explains why you're a coach and I'm an official......

What's the difference between your coach "getting his comments out" and the official that you're b!tching about "getting his comments out"? Why is one OK and the other one wrong?

So the coach was an a$$...that doesn't mean that we as officials get to be a$$es too...T the coach and then stay away from him/her. There is NO reason for that official to have gone over there and made those types of comments - and A Penn. Coach has been posting here long enough for me to take what he says at face value...like it or not, we are held to a higher standard than coaches - at least as far as what we can say during games. If I don't like what the coach is saying/doing, I can deal with it in the proper way - this official chose to handle it in a totally improper way!

Very unprofessional on the part of the official. Of course, it's nothing most of us haven't wanted to say and do at one time or another.

I've always wondered at the dichotomy in such situations. I've experienced both coaches and players who genuinely felt they could say anything they wanted, minus a few "magic words" or phrases; but if I said something out of line in return, they were on me like white on rice. "You can't say that!" "You can't do that!" "I'm telling your supervisor" blah blah blah. Suddenly I am the a-hole and they are the guiltless, offended party. What's up with that?

Penn Coach, I've been reading your posts for a long time, and I respect you. I don't condone what this person (appears to have) said. But you have to admit, many coaches certainly deserve to be talked back to the way this opposing coach was.

Who are you arguing with? I can't find any post in this thread that suggests otherwise.

PA coach: did you by any chance post this on a coaches forum highlighting the behavior of the coach(es)?

Just wondering.

I would guess not, Texas Aggie.
I think Pa Coach likes us more better.
He merely made an actual observation and he shared it.

why are we responding to this? some coach comes on the OFFICIALSFORUM and starts telling us some bogus story?

doesnt ask a question or anything and we are all responding to it saying how bad the comments are. who cares? let the school, the state or the officials that worked the game deal with it!!!!!

There was no question asked and a one sided story given, dont respond to this. Then again, just like every other thread, there has to be someone in there that hijacks it with a "similiar" war story involving the time they teched a varsity coach during a JV game or some other crap.

some people are absurd.

That is so funny. I'm going to use it next time on the court. That will get some laughs.. I love that comment.

Easy there, orangeump. :)
PA Coach is quite welcome here.

I'll assume you're rather new here and just let you in on the fact that PA Coach has been here a long time, and is pretty well respected. His posts have been overwhelmingly intelligent, balanced, and often bring a different perspective to our conversations. He also generally posts with the intent of finding real, accurate answers to his questions. If this were just some random troll, I'd agree with you. But this is no troll.

Yep. Can't argue with you there ;)

Pump your brakes! Penn. Coach has been here longer and participated more than you. I think most here will believe this story.

I wonder why the coach didn't give the official the "stop" sign? :D

Coach,

I agreed the official's actions were inappropriate.

However, if that is truly the worst thing you have ever seen an offical do on the court, you have been blessed.

Now, I eagerly await for the time you come and complain about a coach telling an official "You can't ref."

Oh Puhlease! :rolleyes:

If there ever was any doubt that you are truly a coach, PC...that statement pretty much solidifies it! ;)

Somebody had to ask.

Yes, they are.

It was a legitimate question- and observations- from the coach. You don't have to agree with him, but you also don't have the right to tell him or any one else how to post, including hijackers. That's the mods' job.

I agree with you about the official, but I do not have to like the double standard. Should officials not say things like this? Of course they should not. But I will say I am a little tired of all the complaining about what officials do and coaches are allowed to call us everything short of a child of God and we as officials are always suppose to sit back and do nothing.

Also this is not about for me how long Penn. Coach has been here or how liked he is. If he is so concerned about the professionalism of the official, he should be more offended by the behavior of the coach who did not have to say anything to this official. If you say or do certain things, you will get responses that may or may not be right as it relates to professionalism, but are to be expected. Like Chris Rock said, "I might not agree...but I understand."

Peace

Agree. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And neither of those is really any different than a coach "getting his comments out" either imo. If a coach wants to ask a question about a call, play, etc. in a civil manner, fine. He should receive an answer, and be shown the same respect while doing so. If a coach wants to comment on the officiating however, then he's got no complaint at all if he gets his yappy butt "T"d up. It's <b>NO</b> different than an official commenting on the coach. Neither should be done.

A tough situation that got entirely out of hand. I bet all party's could play the game tape backwards and find the roots of this dialogue that made both coach and referee look less than professional in the eyes of the players and fans.

This makes me further appreciate my ability to call a "T" on a coach that is effecting my ability to call the best game I can - BEFORE it grows nasty.

Sorry PA Coach - if the offending referee is any good at all - I'm certian that (s)he regrets the outcome.

When I first started officiating I had a veteran official tell me to treat most coaches like I would one of my kids. Not out of disrespect. Keep a calm voice, administer any penelty ( T or other foul ), try and bring them to your level, not raise to thier level. Walk away if you have to. Most coaches will respect you for your professionalism in the end. Don't take anything personally. Sometimes it's hard, but in the end it's 99% worth it. This is suppose to fun for us too!

Does this mean that you don't wear beltless pants?:D

beltless for just that reason. I've only had to put one coach over my knee:D

And I think she like it!:cool:

There are coaches that don't know what the heck they are doing and don't know when to quit. There are similar officials. I've encountered more rude coaches than refs in my career, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen any. And as others have pointed out, there is indeed a dichotomy. For example, if someone had posted that "A coach said that a ref called the worst game ever," none of us would bat an eyelash. But when it's reversed, it's headline news.

For conversation sake.......why is it the officials job to make sure good "game management" takes place? Seems to me, almost all bad "game management" scenerios happen because a coach acts like an a$$.

I love how a coach will ride an official, make personal statements, and then complain about getting T'd, stared at, or stop-signed (which I don't do).

There is absolutely a double standard. I don't think it is right or fair. It does exist without a doubt. Somehow over the years it has become okay for coaches to get away from their role as teacher and become advocate. It is understandable that coaches are going to make unnecessary comments from time to time--they have an investment in the outcome of the game while the officials do not. It doesn't make it right, and I'm certainly not defending the actions of the coaches. Who says I wasn't offended by the actions of the coaches? I just didn't focus on that because this is an officials' forum.

If I were to rank the actions of this official among the actions of all adults' actions I've seen at basketball games, it wouldn't be #1--not even in the top 1000--but it is the poorest thing I've ever heard an official say. That's why I thought it would be of interest to this forum. For those of you who got that, cool. For those of you who didn't, that's cool too. No need to rip me or my integrity (orangeump).

Having an investment in the outcome does not justify bad behavior, sorry. I work with varsity coaches who display exemplary behavior dispite having an investment in the outcome.

Bad behavior is evidence of poor attitude, poor sportsmanship, insecurity or ignorance; it does not just "come with the job."

Secondly, while officials do not have an investment in the results, we do have a legitimate interest in the performance. Better played games are, most often, better officiated. Poorly coached games can really cause officials grief. The difference, however, is that, unlike coaches, we have to keep this to ourselves.

And it must be equally understandable then that officials are going to make unecessary comments from time to time also. They are just reacting to the coaches who are making those unecessay comments. That makes both sides <b>wrong</b> and their actions <b>indefensible</b>, no matter how anyone may try to rationalize the behavior of either party.

A good example would be your Frosh coach "getting his comments out".

p-a-r-t-i-e-s

out."

The quotation marks should FOLLOW the period, not preced it.

whistles and stripes is Juggling Referee in disguise. Good to have you back LOL Someone had to take his role..

Makes scents.

The funy thng iz taht it relly dosnt mater how badlee yuo spel, becas evrybudy gets it anywhay.

Yeah, I know, this coming from one of the worst grammar guys out there.

Ouch!! Ya got me.

That about wraps this thread.