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Hartsy Fri Jan 12, 2007 09:21am
Thanks Hostile Fans
 
I'm certain it wasn't meant to be supportive, but I heard a comment from the hostile side of the crowd that confirmed to me I got one right.

During a light press, near mid court, the defensive center gets control of the ball. He's a big kid, and the only thing between him and the basket is a guy half his weight and about 2/3 his height.

He goes full tilt to the basket. The defender does a decent job of holding his ground, but really doesn't challenge the play much. BAM! Right through the little guy. TWEET! PC foul. Easy one.

Once the noise quieted I hear "he was backpedalling all the way!" I say to myself, so he obviously didn't initiate the contact". ;)

Ref Daddy Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:55am
The fans $4.00 admission alleviates their obligation to read and know the rules of basketball in order to contribute to officiating the contest.

Jway44 Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:23pm
They paid their dollar just so they could come and holler. Gotta love all of the officials in the stands at games. Funny how none of them show up for our clinic meetings, though.

Johnny Ringo Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartsy
Once the noise quieted I hear "he was backpedalling all the way!" I say to myself, so he obviously didn't initiate the contact". ;)
Is backpedalling considered LGP?

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:41pm
I had one on Tuesday night. I called a fairly easy block/charge as a block. I'm 100% sure I was right, but the fans right behind me didn't like it. One guy says, "Funny how I've got the same angle as you and I didn't see anything." I said to him (I know, I know, we're not supposed to do this, but it was hard to resist), "Funny how if you had the same angle you'd have had to look right through me." Everyone around him laughed.

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo
Is backpedalling considered LGP?
No, but it's also not considered open target. LGP only applies when defender is guarding, and backpedalling takes him out of that category. He's entitled to his spot on the floor, as along as he gets there first, and legally. At the point of contact, he was there first, and he was legal. Therefore, PC.

mick Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
No, but it's also not considered open target. LGP only applies when defender is guarding, and backpedalling takes him out of that category. He's entitled to his spot on the floor, as along as he gets there first, and legally. At the point of contact, he was there first, and he was legal. Therefore, PC.
Hmmm. <font>

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Hmmm. <font>

Me too....hmmmm....

zebraman Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
LGP only applies when defender is guarding, and backpedalling takes him out of that category.
I have the same question as Mick and Dan. How does backpedaling take a player out of LGP?

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Hmmm. <font>
Hhmmmm??? you think he's still guarding when he's backpedalling?

bob jenkins Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo
Is backpedalling considered LGP?
Johnny -- You have a rules book, right? When is LGP etablished? What can a player do to maintain LGP?

That will answer your question.

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I have the same question as Mick and Dan. How does backpedaling take a player out of LGP?
Okay, I see, you're thinking he initially had LGP and then started backing away from dribbler/shooter.

I was thinking that he never really had LGP per se.

If he was initially guarding, and established LGP and then began to back away, yea, he still HAS LGP.

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Hhmmmm??? you think he's still guarding when he's backpedalling?
err...well, I know he still has lgp while backpedalling. And yes he's still guarding, even for purposes of a 5 second closely guarded count.

Why wouldn't he be guarding or maintain lgp?

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:58pm
Okay, okay, I WAS WRONG!!!

But that's my outer female responding, not my inner male, so I'm not going to get vulgar about it.

I had 7th grade girls last night, so my toggles were adjusted incorrectly for the OP. I was thinking about the little girl standing just outside the key waving to her mommy, when suddenly, the shadow of a very large and fast-moving shooter looms larger over her. She cowers, steps back again, and then again and wham!! The impact is tremendous. Crack! goes her head against the floor. She wails in pain and humiliation, but her agony is short-lived as her teammates jump up and scream in congratulation and approbation! The fans go wild!! She rises tearful but victorious from the floor and walks to the bench showered with confetti and praise. Her mother quietly slips her some Tylenol for the headache.

(edited to remove vulgar comment from inner male)

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 01:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker

If he was initially guarding, and established LGP and then began to back away, yea, he still HAS LGP.
Worth discussing: you don't need to be "guarding" to establish lgp.

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Okay, okay, I WAS WRONG!!!

But that's my outer female responding, not my inner male, so I'm not going to get vulgar about it.

I had 7th grade girls last night, so my toggles were adjusted incorrectly for the OP. I was thinking about the little girl standing just outside the key waving to her mommy, when suddenly, the shadow of a very large and fast-moving shooter looms larger over her. She cowers, steps back again, and then again and wham!! The impact is tremendous. Crack! goes her head against the floor. She wails in pain and humiliation, but her agony is short-lived as her teammates jump up and scream in congratulation and approbation! The fans go wild!! She rises tearful but victorious from the floor and walks to the bench showered with confetti and praise. Her mother quietly slips her some Tylenol for the headache.

She was never guarding, so technically never had LGP. See? that was the type of sitch I envisioned. I promise I'll never, never again think 7th grade girls when the OP is talking about something else.

Now STFU!!

Sorry, I couldn't stop him...
Maybe you can ask your inner adult to edit this response?

edit to note it's not clear that your little friend never initiated lgp from the description given.

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Worth discussing: you don't need to be "guarding" to establish lgp.
I suggest starting a separate thread.

That way it'll be easier for me to print out, edit and type up for an article!

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Maybe you can ask your inner adult to edit this response?
You think I should?

Is that your inner adult getting bossy? or what?

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
You think I should?

Is that your inner adult getting bossy? or what?
Yeah, your inner adult is definitely AWOL today.

:rolleyes:

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yeah, your inner adult is definitely AWOL today.

:rolleyes:
okay, so I'll remove the vulgarity, which is after all, strictly gratuitous. Anything else?

Dan_ref Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
okay, so I'll remove the vulgarity, which is after all, strictly gratuitous. Anything else?
Yeah.

Apparently when your inner adult decided to take the day off he took your inner sense of humor with him. Or her. Or whatever.

rainmaker Fri Jan 12, 2007 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yeah.

Apparently when your inner adult decided to take the day off he took your inner sense of humor with him. Or her. Or whatever.
So, am I supposed to find that funny, or what?

I think I'll just go pay my bills, wash my dishes, and go do my game tonight.

Have a great weekend. (What's the smilie for walking dully away?)

Camron Rust Fri Jan 12, 2007 04:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Okay, I see, you're thinking he initially had LGP and then started backing away from dribbler/shooter.

I was thinking that he never really had LGP per se.

If he was initially guarding, and established LGP and then began to back away, yea, he still HAS LGP.
A player who is backpeddling very likely establishes LGP in the process. Are they facing the opponent? Are they in the path? Do they ever have both feet on the floor at the same time? The answer is highly likely a yes to all three. So, LGP is it.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Jan 12, 2007 04:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Worth discussing: you don't need to be "guarding" to establish lgp.
I'm going to disagree here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuleBook
4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
By virtue of the language used in this rule, I'd say it's impossible for for someone to establish LGP without gaurding. The bolded word(s) - "guard," is being used, instead of "player," and the word "guard" means, essentially, in this case, "one who is guarding."

HawkeyeCubP Fri Jan 12, 2007 04:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
A player who is backpeddling very likely establishes LGP in the process. Are they facing the opponent? Are they in the path? Do they ever have both feet on the floor at the same time? The answer is highly likely a yes to all three. So, LGP is it.
This is not a requirement of LGP.

TimTaylor Fri Jan 12, 2007 05:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
A player who is backpeddling very likely establishes LGP in the process. Are they facing the opponent? Are they in the path? Do they ever have both feet on the floor at the same time? The answer is highly likely a yes to all three. So, LGP is it.
That would be my take as well.......

TimTaylor Fri Jan 12, 2007 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker

I think I'll just go pay my bills, wash my dishes, and go do my game tonight......
At least you still have one. My two at DDHS were postphoned until the 17th due to weather (Oregon Trail district still closed today).

I do have one at 6pm tomorrow at VCHS....maybe I'll come in early & catch the end of your game.....:eek:

Camron Rust Fri Jan 12, 2007 08:06pm
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Camron Rust
A player who is backpeddling very likely establishes LGP in the process. Are they facing the opponent? Are they in the path? Do they ever have both feet on the floor at the same time? The answer is highly likely a yes to all three. So, LGP is it.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
This is not a requirement of LGP.
Oh really?

How about:

SECTION 23 GUARDING<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.

LGP is only relevant if there is contact. If the guard is not in their path at the time of contact, that means the guard is moving into the opponent and does not have LGP.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Jan 12, 2007 08:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Camron Rust
A player who is backpeddling very likely establishes LGP in the process. Are they facing the opponent? Are they in the path? Do they ever have both feet on the floor at the same time? The answer is highly likely a yes to all three. So, LGP is it.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Oh really?

How about:

SECTION 23 GUARDING<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.

LGP is only relevant if there is contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
If the guard is not in their path at the time of contact, that means the guard is moving into the opponent and does not have LGP.
Conceded that "being in the path" is a requirement of "gaurding," which is a requirement of LGP.

But simply because a gaurd is not in the path of an offensive player does not automatically mean the gaurd is moving into the opponent and is responsible for the illegal contact. Take, for instance, a stationary offensive player who fouls a gaurd by pushing, then runs the other way to receive a pass. In the OP, yes, but not universally.


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